why do so many come in here and BASH COPS

[Ron-Solo]

What if you see a rifle built on OLL without a magazine lock but with regular magazine release? What if you see a guy with bullet button reloading with 30 round magazines? As an LEO, you cannot check it out?

This is the point I've been trying to make to J-Cat. He tries to deal in "Absolutes" when they don't exist in the world of street policing. One step leads to another. You have to go thru the numbers, 1-2-3-4-5; you can't go 1-2-5, or you get tossed out in court for obvious reasons.

By his logic, if I saw a machine gun at a legal shooting range, I couldn't verify that it was leagally possessed because it is at a place where it is legal to shoot. The logic just doesn't work.

I'm tired of explaining it to him.

My goal here is not to bash anyone, even if I disagree with their political views. My goal is to stop the spread of incorrect information that could get someone into an ugly legal situation that could easily be avoided. Part of the 'Serve and Protect' to borrow another agencies motto.

Aloha to ALL!

May you guns be fun, your bullets plenty, and your friendships forever......

[J-cat]

How about someone with an AW and subject is obviously not old enough to have been of age when the AWB went into effect.

That is an additional factor added to the mix. We can throw other factors: Full-auto malfunction, etc. that will create resonable suspicion.

What we're arguing about is your basic encounter at the shooting range.

BTW, the second AW law went into effect in 2001. Are we talking about toddlers here?

[J-cat]

J-cat, So you work for CDC. (California Department Of Corrections) for those of you not familiar with the term.

I commend you for your work in our states penal system. It takes a special sort to stay confined with, and tend to the worst of the worst in our society. Hats off to you.

Thank You. Fortunately, I'm no longer confined. I've been in the field for a long time and I love it.

[J-cat]

Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?

The CA courts allow checkpoints with certain limitations, one of which is prior notice and randomness. See Ingersol v. Palmer.

Still, this is different from our original scenario.

[J-cat]

What if you see a rifle built on OLL without a magazine lock but with regular magazine release? What if you see a guy with bullet button reloading with 30 round magazines? As an LEO, you cannot check it out?

That is, again, an additional factor.

The "reasonable" in reasonable suspicion refers to a reasonable officer with the same experience and training. The law assumes the officer is competent. An officer has no business investigating matters he does not know about. An investigation is an inquiry into whether a law was violated, not a learning exercise about the law itself.

The US Supreme Court has a well established doctrine: In criminal proceedings, any ambiguity in the law shall be considered in favor of the defendant. US v Thompson Center Arms.

I expect, as do the courts, the officer to know the AW law before jamming someone over a 30-round mag with a bullet button.

In the original scenario, we're talking about a compliant rifle possessed by an inconspicuous person on a public range surrounded by similar individuals. If we throw in additional factors, such as obviously illegal characteristics, then YES the officer has the right to investigate. But without anything else, are we all subject to harassment every time we leave our house?

Certain people here think that mere possession of an AW is, on it's face, evidence of illegal activity. It is not. Not at a public range, anyway.

[J-cat]

The state of California has determined that the possession of an unregistered AW is a felony. An unregistered AW is contraband. Having an AW in public (at a public range) just may be P C to detain for a L E officer to check. If you were to interfere and get arrested for a 148P.C. charge, it might be up held. Every time I take my AW's out, I have a copy of my AW registration. The public range I live near requires a copy of the AW registration before being allowed to shoot. As distasteful as I find it, I expect to be detained by L E while out in public with an AW. I will comply with the range staff and L E.

Courts have given Game Wardens more latitude regarding searches and seizure than any other L E Officers. They can stop and search a vehicle with no P C whatsoever other than just being in an area where hunting can occur.

An un registered automobile is only an infraction and law does require a sticker on the license plate.

I believe the courts would side with L E on this one due to the nature of an AW in public and public safety. This, of course would have to be tested in court. I believe this is a fight I do not want to take on. If you want to take it on, be my guest.

I'm not a CO.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too. Do cops have the right to detain everyone at the range everytime the range opens for business?

[J-cat]

This is the point I've been trying to make to J-Cat. He tries to deal in "Absolutes" when they don't exist in the world of street policing. One step leads to another. You have to go thru the numbers, 1-2-3-4-5; you can't go 1-2-5, or you get tossed out in court for obvious reasons.

By his logic, if I saw a machine gun at a legal shooting range, I couldn't verify that it was leagally possessed because it is at a place where it is legal to shoot. The logic just doesn't work.

I'm tired of explaining it to him.

My goal here is not to bash anyone, even if I disagree with their political views. My goal is to stop the spread of incorrect information that could get someone into an ugly legal situation that could easily be avoided. Part of the 'Serve and Protect' to borrow another agencies motto.

Aloha to ALL!

May you guns be fun, your bullets plenty, and your friendships forever......

Your argument is ridiculous.

A machinegun is illegal period. So are silencers. These are obviously illegal characteristics. An AW is not illegal if it is registered. The same goes for handguns.

Do you think you have the right to run every handgun at the range to see if it is registered?

[strangerdude]

Well, cops are not better than the public. There are good ones and bad ones. If someone wants to verbally bash them, they have the right to. After all, cops are always caught on video bashing the face of an innocent person. We have the right to at least say what we feel. As I am typing this I am watching the news and they are reporting on a female Detective for LAPD who murdered her boyfriends ex-girlfriend 20 years ago. Cops don't deserve to be glorified, that's all I'm saying.

[Fire in the Hole]

Well, cops are not better than the public. There are good ones and bad ones. If someone wants to verbally bash them, they have the right to. After all, cops are always caught on video bashing the face of an innocent person. We have the right to at least say what we feel. As I am typing this I am watching the news and they are reporting on a female Detective for LAPD who murdered her boyfriends ex-girlfriend 20 years ago. Cops don't deserve to be glorified, that's all I'm saying.

You just can't exercise that right here.

[Kestryll]

If someone wants to verbally bash them, they have the right to.

Not in this forum they don't.

Read the rules, abide by them or do not post in here.

[strangerdude]

Not in this forum they don't.

Read the rules, abide by them or do not post in here.

SIR, YES SIR!

[AaronHorrocks]

I don't bash cops here, I put that in the off-topic section!

I've had a Livermore officer perform an illegal search on my property, and cause damage... thus far has been unresolved.

I've had my truck SHOT (at home in Livermore), and the officer that arrived refused to file a report.

My girlfriend and I were out to dinner (in Concord), when the truck was vandalized, and her phone, my camera, and some ammo and tools were stolen. We filed this report online to Concord PD, and it was rejected.

And that has been my experience with local "law enforcement" just over the last couple of years. I'm very unhappy with them, as I could only assume that you too would be if you've gone through the same stuff.

[paladin4415]

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too.

Not true. Handguns that you had before the state required registration are still legal to possess, and there is no requirement to register them now.

[paladin4415]

A machinegun is illegal period. So are silencers.

There many legal machine guns in California, supressors also.

[FLIGHT762]

I'm not a CO.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is illegal too. Do cops have the right to detain everyone at the range everytime the range opens for business?

Possession of an unregistered handgun is not illegal in this state. In 1998, the law was changed that all Private party transfers of all firearms go through an FFL. Handguns are required to be DROS'ED.
If you legally owned the handgun prior to 1998, there is no mandatory pistol registration.
From DOJ's web site:

"There is no firearm registration requirement in California except for assault weapon owners and personal handgun importers. However, you may submit a Firearm Ownership Record to the DOJ for any firearm you own. Having a Firearm Ownership Record on file with the DOJ may help in the return of your firearm if it is lost or stolen."

If I bought handguns through PPT prior to 1998, I do not have to register them.

There are penalty enhancements for illegally carrying a handgun not registered to you.

Your repeated use of the "unregistered handgun" doesn't hold. There is no requirement that all handguns in the state of California be registered.

In my post, I am referring to Assault Weapons. As I posted earlier, I believe a LEO can legally detain at a public range to determine if the AW is registered, is contraband or is a legal OLL.

If you were to resist the LEO's check and were arrested for 148 P C, It is my opinion that you would probably loose. If you are a LEO and are convicted of 148 P C, you would also have a battle keeping your job.

As I said, I won't fight that battle. If a LEO asks me to see if my AW's are registered, I will comply with them and range staff. Anyone else is another matter.

As a honorably retired LEO with a CCW privileges, I am not required to have my AW's in a locked container when transporting them.