why do so many come in here and BASH COPS

[ST5MF]

J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.

[Ron-Solo]

You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.

Where did you get your law degree or basic POST certificate?

I have 32 years in law enforcement and hold a Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, and Middle Management Post Certificates. I think I know the laws of arrest and the case law supporting detentions and probable cause. I've made thousands of arrests and never had one dismissed due to unlawful detention or lack of probable cause.

So far, you have been spreading out mis-information. Most of what you post is inaccurate and half-truths. For crying out loud - STOP IT !

Your intrepretations are going to get someone in hot water if they believe what you post.

Please stop spreading inaccurate information in this forum.

FYI, there is no requirement in CA to register a pistol and it is not a crime. You are showing your ignorance again. Sadly, it is you who do not understand the basics of detention and arrest.

Time for you to go...........

[Ron-Solo]

J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.

Sadly, J-cat is spreading inaccurate info, and no peace officer in the state would recommend telling a LEO to F-Off as he put it earlier. I seriously doubt his validity.

It is one thing to politely disagree, but I have a problem with him giving out bad advice that could land someone in a bed of legal hassles that could easily be avoided.

Ron

[SVT-40]

It is not a very different situation at all. High power matches take place at public shooting ranges.

Do you pull over cars just to see if the drivers are licensed?

As far as my quals, I am a peace officer in this state. I have both undergrad and graduate degrees in this field. I don't troll shooting ranges for offenders. But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road.

As I said at a high power match ALL equipment would be vetted by the range masters. So it's apples and oranges.

If you have to ask about pulling cars over to see if the drivers are licensed, then I truly believe you are not a Police Officer or Deputy Sheriff.

What type of peace officer are you? There are many, according to the penal code who are technically "peace officers" such as Probation or Parole officers and prison guards.

These gentleman have a tough job, but they do not preform the job of a street cop or deputy. They do not handle routine calls and have near the street experience with search and seizure issues. Most everything they do is related to warrants or probation and parole searches. Very few "observation" type detentions or contacts.

So as to quote you :

"But I do detain and search people every week in their homes and on the road."

May I ask just how you legally detain people in their homes and their vehicles??

Search and seizure 101:
If an officer who is in a public place sees what he believes or suspects is criminal, or possible criminal behavior. He can detain those involved to determine if in fact any crime has occurred or is occurring. He is free to examine any property in plain sight. including any firearm.

Like it or not that is what cops do. The officer does not have to KNOW a crime has or is occurring. All that is needed is a belief or suspicion.

The belief or suspicion can be based on his training and experience or just good old common sense.

After the original detention or casual contact he would investigate to determine if a crime actually was or had occurred.

It could be as simple as asking "does that rifle have a mag lock and a ten round mag"? Once he verified all was legal off he goes with minimal intrusion.

Contacts or detentions to verify legality of many items or actions take place every day. Like stopping young looking people with alcohol to determine their age. You can't know their age so you stop and verify it. No big deal.

As I said in my other post If a LEO was in any public place and saw a person with a baggie of white powder. He has plenty of reasons to stop the person and verify that the baggie does not contain illegal drugs.. He does not have to know they are drugs. He just has to have a suspicion. Same goes for weapons.

As for "trolling" at ranges. have you ever seen it done? It would be a waste of a cops time. Most folks at ranges are very upstanding types. When cops are at a range to shoot they don't want to get involved with any enforcement contacts. They are there to shoot.

One other thing to consider if approached by a LEO at a range. He most likely will be acting on a call for service where it has been reported that someone has an "illegal weapon". You would not know this. So telling him to F##off would not be conducive to having a positive outcome for the contact, and would get the contact off on the wrong foot.

[ST5MF]

J-Cat,

I am glad you post here as an LEO.

You are exactly what the LEO Forum Needs.

So now when other LEO's think I am bashing them; you can prove my points with your responses.

TIA.

Of course this is a "tongue in cheek" response.

Before someone mounts an all out attack on me- I am being vicious.

[Gator Monroe]

lET'S ATTACK dEM/lIBS INSTED ?

[J-cat]

Where did you get your law degree or basic POST certificate?

I have 32 years in law enforcement and hold a Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, Supervisory, and Middle Management Post Certificates. I think I know the laws of arrest and the case law supporting detentions and probable cause. I've made thousands of arrests and never had one dismissed due to unlawful detention or lack of probable cause.

So far, you have been spreading out mis-information. Most of what you post is inaccurate and half-truths. For crying out loud - STOP IT !

Your intrepretations are going to get someone in hot water if they believe what you post.

Please stop spreading inaccurate information in this forum.

FYI, there is no requirement in CA to register a pistol and it is not a crime. You are showing your ignorance again. Sadly, it is you who do not understand the basics of detention and arrest.

Time for you to go...........

Time for you to go. It is absolutely lamentable that someone with your credentials has a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?

Please do, because driving a car without a license is illegal, yet you cannot pull me over just to check.

And possession of stolen property is illegal, but you cannot run my Ipod just because you see me walking down the street.

Please justify your position instead of attacking me personally.

[SVT-40]

J-cat, So you work for CDC. (California Department Of Corrections) for those of you not familiar with the term.

I commend you for your work in our states penal system. It takes a special sort to stay confined with, and tend to the worst of the worst in our society. Hats off to you.

[TRICKSTER]

Time for you to go. It is absolutely lamentable that someone with your credentials has a fundamental misunderstanding of the law.

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?

How about someone with an AW and subject is obviously not old enough to have been of age when the AWB went into effect.

[TRICKSTER]

Please do, because driving a car without a license is illegal, yet you cannot pull me over just to check.

Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?

[B.D.Dubloon]

Wasn't Richmond PD doing exactly with their vehicle checkpoints?
What about back in the days when CHP was doing vehicle safety inspections?
What about DUI checkpoints?

Checkpoints are a whole different issue, legally, than stopping someone (in the traditional sense). I know DUI checkpoints have to be announced in advance, and probably so do the other types of checkpoints.

[masameet]

About a year or two ago a Concord PD officer was fired and then rehired for stopping motorists and asking for their DLs, reg and ins. cards. He was doing these stops in a predominantly Hispanic area (Monument Blvd.). Actually right outside some carneceria/taqueria/bodega. lol I think he stopped the people right after they left said shops. Most of the motorists were illegals and their vehicles were impounded.

As to the original question, and I'm not posting this simply because I like to speak and write with tongue-in-cheek, but judging from a great number of Calgun threads, I'd say the typical Calgunner is a male who likes to complain too much. If he's not griping about how Obama sucks, or about his girlfriend or wife, or the lack of ammo, or how some Calgunner stiffed him in a gun transaction, or the 10-day waiting period, or how Canyon Sports or Diablo Valley Gun Works or some other FFL is charging too much for transfer fees, guns, ammo, lousy customer service, blah blah blah [shrug] ... People get accustomed to thinking a certain way and then when told not to ... Couple that griping with gun ownership and knowing enough about certain laws, along with paranoia and stubbornness (apparently two other qualities of Calgunners), and probably some very bad personal experiences with cops, then it's kinda hard not to expect a bit of self-righteousness creeping into the consciousness and being expressed perhaps too unabashedly in a LEO forum.

Still I like the notion that cops are taught at their academies to use words to "kill citizens with kindness." lol I guess that training in part explains why the cops I've met not only have great senses of humor, but are also willing to educate, inform, help, and allay people's fears and ignorance. It's just too bad that one or two "bad" cops can sour some people's perceptions so that they see all LE officers as "the enemy." And since it's too easy for most people to generalize, well, then how do we teach Calgunners to be open-minded, to view events and the law dispassionately and without ego? IMO banning teaches people nothing, as it only makes them feel more disgruntled and reinforces in their minds that cops, even though they're not doing the banning, are unfair. In another forum I'm on, we've a LEO forum. Certain cops are the forum moderators (but other moderators do step in from time to time) and instead of banning people, they give stern warnings to perceived cop bashers and delete their cop bashing posts. Only after repeated warnings about not cop bashing do some posters get perma-banned.

[Jonathan Doe]

Instead of attacking my credentials, why don't you explain how the possession of an AW at a shooting range, absent any other factors, rises to the level of reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is occurring?

What if you see a rifle built on OLL without a magazine lock but with regular magazine release? What if you see a guy with bullet button reloading with 30 round magazines? As an LEO, you cannot check it out?

[Soldier415]

About a year or two ago a Concord PD officer was fired and then rehired for stopping motorists and asking for their DLs, reg and ins. cards. He was doing these stops in a predominantly Hispanic area (Monument Blvd.). Actually right outside some carneceria/taqueria/bodega. lol I think he stopped the people right after they left said shops. Most of the motorists were illegals and their vehicles were impounded.

.

I'm not seeing the problem here.

So the officer was fired for enforcing the law?

[FLIGHT762]

You don't understand the basics of detention and arrest.

You cannot stop and detain someone just because you wanna see their registration. An AW is not illegal to possess at a shooting range. The law does not require people to glue their AW registration letter to the side of their rifle. You do not have the right to forcibly inquire into the registration issue without additional factors that would raise suspicion that criminal activity is occurring. What criminal activity are you investigating? Possession of an illegal AW? So mere ownership of an AW is grounds for detention every time I leave my house? How about possession of an unregistered pistol? Are you going to detain and run every single pistol owner every time they go to the range just to see they are registered?

You cannot pull over a car just to see the driver's CDL.

You cannot detain a pedestrian just to run him for warrants.

ETC.

The state of California has determined that the possession of an unregistered AW is a felony. An unregistered AW is contraband. Having an AW in public (at a public range) just may be P C to detain for a L E officer to check. If you were to interfere and get arrested for a 148P.C. charge, it might be up held. Every time I take my AW's out, I have a copy of my AW registration. The public range I live near requires a copy of the AW registration before being allowed to shoot. As distasteful as I find it, I expect to be detained by L E while out in public with an AW. I will comply with the range staff and L E.

Courts have given Game Wardens more latitude regarding searches and seizure than any other L E Officers. They can stop and search a vehicle with no P C whatsoever other than just being in an area where hunting can occur.

An un registered automobile is only an infraction and law does require a sticker on the license plate.

I believe the courts would side with L E on this one due to the nature of an AW in public and public safety. This, of course would have to be tested in court. I believe this is a fight I do not want to take on. If you want to take it on, be my guest.