30-06 Reloading issue

[J-cat]

I have a feeling this is a neck die.

[Redemption]

Went over this with one of the guys at Bullzeye yesterday when I was picking up my new bipod, if it was a neck sizing die it would size the neck down to the shoulder without bumping back the shoulder, its not sizing to the shoulder though.

I have a feeling this is a neck die.

[J-cat]

Is it sizing the body at all?

[Redemption]

No, but its not doing that on the Fordtrucks die or mine. There are some with little lenthwise marks on the body but that can just as easily be from feeding into or extracting from the chamber.

Is it sizing the body at all?

[JMP]

Spending in the vicinity of $250 for a set of dies is just not a thing an average ocassional shooter or hunter, reloader does.

What are you talking about? Did you not see the videos? There are all kinds of videos instructional and otherwise in his YouTube channel. You think he isn't a serious reloader?

I get what you are saying about trying to get the shell holder and dies so they closely align with SAAMI spec; however, that is not what is done for optimal reloading. Ideally, you should be sizing based on your chamber, not based on SAAMI spec.

That's why proper dies are made after you fire several rounds of brass, then you can send them to a tool company, and you can get a die made to fit your chamber. This will be for the best results and the only way to properly size for your chamber. This sizing die will run about $400, and you must figure another $120-150 for a seating die.

The Redding Comp dies are for serious shooters that want something in the middle ground where they can take advantage of fire-forming, neck tuning, and get a seating die that will seat the bullet concentrically. So, no, $250 on a set isn't bad at all as it is middle of the road.

If you get $10 dies, well, what do you expect? They do fine for autoloading pistols, but no serious rifle shooter is going to be whining about spending a few bucks to get correct sized brass with concentric seating.

As the OP learned, the die is the single most important tool he has because he cannot control the dimensions of the case without a good die. For a machinist that is making instructional videos, you bet, I think a reasonable set of dies are in order.

Also, again, there is no problem with taking a layer off of your shell holder. It does not get it out of spec, it allows for my spec as you set the die at the height you need with the lock ring. If there is a little excess space under the die (as there should be), it isn't a problem at all. Are their SAAMI specs for shellholders? If so, could you post them? I would be curious to see how they are drawn up. I know that regular shell holders give you 0.125" from the base of the brass to the top of the die.

I am really not trying to be argumentative, and obviously you know a lot about this matter, but I do not understand why you are insinuating folks are being impractical or incorrect when they have a different process from you.

Heck, I don't know if that is what you were even saying, I may have read the post all incorrectly as it has gotten jumbled up quite a bit at this point.

[Bumslie]

I feel like I tuned into an episode of the housewives of orange County.

[J-cat]

No, but its not doing that on the Fordtrucks die or mine. There are some with little lenthwise marks on the body but that can just as easily be from feeding into or extracting from the chamber.

All FL dies size the body. Take your calipers and measure the shoulder diameter pre and after sizing and do the same for the bottom of the case at the expansion ring.

[J-cat]

I feel like I tuned into an episode of the housewives of orange County.

This is the real reloaders of the IE, beeotch!

[Redemption]

There is quite a lot of material / information / dead end alleys that we all went down throughout this thread, some of them being my fault.

I dont know that I would call me a serious anything anymore. When I was in the military my life and my attitude towards everything was very serious. At this time in my life I have a bit of fun doing videos and I reload for a number of reasons. To answer that question a person has to ask themselves why they reload. Some do it for accuracy, some do it to reduce their cost of ammunition, some to pad against ammunition shortages, some because they want to learn more.

There seems to me to be two schools of thought present in the thread.

1. is with the SAAMI specs. The purpose of SAAMI is more or less to standardize data and there are a lot of important reasons this is done. I am going to venture that my thought process is the same as pacrats in that getting the die to turn out brass with the correct geometry brings the brass within SAAMI spec and therefore the die is in spec. It is more or less the specifications that the die is built around. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

2. The chamber school of thought is more about taylor made munitions. Ammunition made for your chamber. What I find interesting is when people in this school of thought argue against die alteration, when the premise of building munitions to your chamber predicate on the idea of an altered die as it pertains to SAAMI specifications. (this is not a dig, it is a genuine school of thought)

To me the root cause of the difference of opinion I have seen in this thread has a lot more to do with differing styles than differing standards.

My $10 die does not bring brass into SAAMI spec nor does it bring it into spec with my chamber - This is I think the main point that I was having to fight to prove for the better part of three pages. I am sure this forum has had to suffer guys who maladjusted single stage presses, and all kinds of stuff, but I did genuinely have to fight those initial perceptions. I did however make some other silly mistakes but I am also human like everyone else here.

In many ways I feel this argument is a matter of six of one, half dozen of the other. If I machine the die to have it turning out brass within SAAMI spec or buy a new die, it is more or less the same, the video shows that to be abundantly clear. If I machine the die to turn out brass to my chamber or buy a custom die to do that, the result will be similar (but admittedly not the same) If I fire-form the brass then buy a neck only sizing die the result is much the same. There are after all only so many variables.

I think we will find that the two schools of thought come from two very different kinds of shooters. School 1 being the hunter and rec shooter school 2 being the bench rest shooters. "And Im stuck in the middle with you" Both have their place in our world and neither should be marginalized.

I am an oddball among shooters. I am not drawn to 'near lab conditions' I am drawn to field shooting. Shooting in the bush from the bush, I suspect my background has a lot to do with that. I am not drawn to flashy firearms, or really anything impractical. I am not a huge fan of tacticool and I consider an AR15 to be more or less a coyote gun. I buy only what I consider practical firearms in common calibers and yet I am not a prepper. I am not looking to do 1k shots on paper, though I may occasionally put myself up to the task for fun. Im looking to put my prey down humanely at intelligent engagement distances. Can I do distance shooting? Sure, on a bad day I was 8/10 in the black 500m with ironsights on a rifle that most people wouldnt sully their hands by touching, to me proof positive that shooting is 90% shooter and 10% equipment.

So in my eyes the proper direction to go is to decide what is the practical decision for me? Chances are ill buy Just a die, the one die and then I will maybe tinker with the one that is screwed up. In the meantime though I am going to mooch Fordtrucks die until he steals it back from me!

What are you talking about? Did you not see the videos? There are all kinds of videos instructional and otherwise in his YouTube channel. You think he isn't a serious reloader?

I get what you are saying about trying to get the shell holder and dies so they closely align with SAAMI spec; however, that is not what is done for optimal reloading. Ideally, you should be sizing based on your chamber, not based on SAAMI spec.

That's why proper dies are made after you fire several rounds of brass, then you can send them to a tool company, and you can get a die made to fit your chamber. This will be for the best results and the only way to properly size for your chamber. This sizing die will run about $400, and you must figure another $120-150 for a seating die.

The Redding Comp dies are for serious shooters that want something in the middle ground where they can take advantage of fire-forming, neck tuning, and get a seating die that will seat the bullet concentrically. So, no, $250 on a set isn't bad at all as it is middle of the road.

If you get $10 dies, well, what do you expect? They do fine for autoloading pistols, but no serious rifle shooter is going to be whining about spending a few bucks to get correct sized brass with concentric seating.

As the OP learned, the die is the single most important tool he has because he cannot control the dimensions of the case without a good die. For a machinist that is making instructional videos, you bet, I think a reasonable set of dies are in order.

Also, again, there is no problem with taking a layer off of your shell holder. It does not get it out of spec, it allows for my spec as you set the die at the height you need with the lock ring. If there is a little excess space under the die (as there should be), it isn't a problem at all. Are their SAAMI specs for shellholders? If so, could you post them? I would be curious to see how they are drawn up. I know that regular shell holders give you 0.125" from the base of the brass to the top of the die.

I am really not trying to be argumentative, and obviously you know a lot about this matter, but I do not understand why you are insinuating folks are being impractical or incorrect when they have a different process from you.

Heck, I don't know if that is what you were even saying, I may have read the post all incorrectly as it has gotten jumbled up quite a bit at this point.

[J-cat]

So does it size the body or not?

[Redemption]

Havnt been in the garage yet, it gets hot here. I dont have any brass left that hasnt been in a die but I can compare the ones Ive sized in Ford trucks die to the ones sized in my die, to see the difference.

So does it size the body or not?

[J-cat]

Another theory:

You have a bunch of brass that was fired in a semi-auto chamber. This kind of chamber allows the brass to expand a lot. A regular FL die that is borderline right at the edge of being adequate for that particular headspace setting may not be able to compensate for the additional brass springback resulting from the copious expansion permitted by said chamber. Hence the difficulty in closing the bolt.

I have dies that bump the shoulder .010" and .005" and .001" using a standard shell holder. The one which bumps the shoulder .001" will not resize some semi-auto fired cases due to excessive springback. The one that bumps .005" just barely works. I have to use the .010" one with a competition shell holder.

[Redemption]

By measuring the ID of the die as deep as the calipers will go into the taper of the die mouth: 0.456

Brass sized by Fordtrucks Lee die:

case mouth ID: 0.3045
Top of case mouth OD: 0.332
Base of the neck/ head of the shoulder OD: 0.335
Near the case head (measurement taken from where the brass sticks out of the shell holder): 0.468
Base of the shoulder/top of the body: 0.440

Brass Sized by my die

case mouth ID: 0.304
Top of case mouth OD: 0.332
Base of the neck/ head of the shoulder OD: 0.341
Near the case head (measurement taken from where the brass sticks out of the shell holder): 0.467
Base of the shoulder/top of the body: 0.440

Like I said every last piece of 06 brass I have has been through a die so I dont have an unfired comparison but you can see some pretty stark difference there just by looking at the brass that went in either die.

You may be right and it is the main reason I have done nothing else to alter anything until after I try to size some brass in it after my next range day.

It would seem to me that the 0.006 difference in measurement on the base of the neck is the measurement of most interest though.

Another theory:

You have a bunch of brass that was fired in a semi-auto chamber. This kind of chamber allows the brass to expand a lot. A regular FL die that is borderline right at the edge of being adequate for that particular headspace setting may not be able to compensate for the additional brass springback resulting from the copious expansion permitted by said chamber. Hence the difficulty in closing the bolt.

I have dies that bump the shoulder .010" and .005" and .001" using a standard shell holder. The one which bumps the shoulder .001" will not resize some semi-auto fired cases due to excessive springback. The one that bumps .005" just barely works. I have to use the .010" one with a competition shell holder.

[pacrat]

JMP

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat
Spending in the vicinity of $250 for a set of dies is just not a thing an average ocassional shooter or hunter, reloader does.

JMP

What are you talking about? Did you not see the videos? There are all kinds of videos instructional and otherwise in his YouTube channel. You think he isn't a serious reloader?

No I did not see "videos" on his "YouTube channel". I saw one video OP posted and linked. Regarding this problem he is having.

I think he is "a serious young man" who has a problem with a die.

But not what most long in the tooth reloaders would call a "serious reloader". Such as a bench competitor or heavy varmint rifle guy, shooting thousands of rounds at praire dogs and paper a yr. Those are IMO the "serious reloaders" shooting to the point of wanting to spend $250/500 on a single die set.

What exactly denotes "a serious reloader" is subjective. I consider myself a serious reloader with over 4 decades of experience that has accumulated thousands of dollars in reloading equipment. Yet my goals are ocassional target practice and hunting. Not precision bench competition.

But this opening quote from OP in post #1 of this thread, strongly suggests to me that this may likely be his first time loading bottleneck rifle cartridges.

That and if he were in fact already an experienced "serious reloader" of rifle cartridges. I believe he would have a better grasp of the "jargon" used to describe things reloading related. That is my "impression" of his experience.

30-06 Reloading issue

Ive been Working doing 45 acp for a bit but just started reloading 30-06.

Also, again, there is no problem with taking a layer off of your shell holder.

Geeesh, Must I again agree with you? How many times before you accept that I agree with you? I never said there was an issue with modifying a shell holder within reason. Somebody else said, I said it, along with much more that I never said. Still doesn't mean that I said it, or that I disagree with you.


It does not get it out of spec, it allows for my spec as you set the die at the height you need with the lock ring. If there is a little excess space under the die (as there should be), it isn't a problem at all. Are their SAAMI specs for shellholders? If so, could you post them? I would be curious to see how they are drawn up. I know that regular shell holders give you 0.125" from the base of the brass to the top of the die.

To the best of my knowledge, SAAMI sets no spec standards for shell holders or dies. They set Pressure Level, Chamber, and Ammo specs for the Firearm and Ammo industries.

Different "SPECS" for shell holders. Were "standardized" by the Reloading Industry at .125" before I began reloading. Those .125" SHs are within "RELOADING INDUSTRY STANDARDIZED SPECS". More or less than that is "OUT OF SPEC" by industry standard. Those Industry Standard specs for SH/Dies produce ammo that meets SAAMI specs.

Whether a modified SH of other than .125" works for you or I. Doesn't matter it is still out of industry standard spec. Just as if you shorten a die and it works fine, it is still out of spec. Unless as is the case with OP, it was out of spec and needs to be modified to bring it in spec.

What JMP considers "his spec" doesn't matter. It is the Industry Standard Spec that is the universal baseline of what is considered "in spec" for the rest of the world.

Again, I must violently agree with you on proper die adjusting procedures. How many times must some one agree with you, before you agree that they agree?

In the OP's case it doesn't matter how you or I adjust a die. For the OP it doesn't work because his die is too damn deep.

I am really not trying to be argumentative, and obviously you know a lot about this matter, but I do not understand why you are insinuating folks are being impractical or incorrect when they have a different process from you.

Geeesh again with that. I never said or insinuated anyone was being impractical or incorrect for having a different process than mine. Sharing ideas, procedures, and views. Is what a "forum" is about. Yet when some one keeps saying things I didn't say, because some one else said I said things I didn't, it becomes tiresome.

When on the other hand some one says trimming a die bottom ruins it. I disagree. When the same person repeatedly fabricates things he claims I said regarding SHs, that I didn't say. In an effort to disprove the factual statements I did make. When that didn't work. That same someone claims they also trim dies as needed. But also claims they never saw a die that they needed to trim.

Heck, I don't know if that is what you were even saying, I may have read the post all incorrectly as it has gotten jumbled up quite a bit at this point.

Yes, this thread has become a bit jumbled to say the least. Especially with all the mis-information about what I've actually said, as opposed to what others claim I said. And still others picking up on the mis-information and passing it along in other posts.

It started as a simple request for assistance/info from a member. Which boiled down to one of two fixes. Trim [1] or trim [2]. Since he trimmed [1] to the point of destruction. That obviously wasn't the fix, even though it was easiest/cheapest of the two to trim. So he went for it. Understandable. Now all that is left is to trim [2] or buy a new [2] and use old [2] as a paperweight.

[/QUOTE]

This post has become a bit jumbled as to quotes and responses in bold. Apologies. My wife is ill and I've been running out of the office into the house every few minutes to care for her. Hopefully JMP can this time get the jist of what I've been saying. If not I again invite all to read post #100. I made my thoughts and reasoning clear there. Or at least I think I did.

[J-cat]

So it is sizing the body, but not bumping the shoulder.

How far down the neck dies the step form, meaning it starts off at .332" at the case mouth and then steps to .341".