30-06 Reloading issue

[Redemption]

Pacrat is right, new to rifle reloading, Never made any illusions otherwise.

So it is sizing the body, but not bumping the shoulder.

How far down the neck dies the step form, meaning it starts off at .332" at the case mouth and then steps to .341".

I am going to assume that what you mean by 'bumping the shoulder' if I am correct about that I would say that it is somewhere near 0.050 of the neck that is not being sized, not a simple place to measure though.

Adjust your dies for seating with no crimping.Sometimes the die body will go low enough to hit the seating with crimping step. If you seat and crimp it will buckle the case. I usually crimp as a separate step if I crimp. I would go back and set the dies again

Whaaa? My dies dont crimp on the seating step...This problem has been traced back already to be happening long before the seating step.

[pacrat]

Whaaa? My dies dont crimp on the seating step...This problem has been traced back already to be happening long before the seating step.

Did you mean to say "sizing" step?

[Redemption]

"Adjust your dies for seating with no crimping.Sometimes the die body will go low enough to hit the seating with crimping step. If you seat and crimp it will buckle the case."

Sorry I grossly misread his statement as something else entirely and was massively confused. But since the problem avails itself long before the seating step it is not the cause of the issue.

Yesterday I turned out 15 live rounds using Fordtrucks die for sizing and at the end gave them a light crimp on my factory crimp die. They chamber beautifully. Crimping is not even a possibility here.

Did you mean to say "sizing" step?

[Redemption]

With my die im not sizing enough of the neck, your problem was if I understand that your depth was set too deep,

On my Lee dies its a separate die for crimping

Post #133 I think will shed some light on my problem. Specifically the following statement.

Known good die
Base of the neck/ head of the shoulder OD: 0.335

My die
Base of the neck/ head of the shoulder OD: 0.341

Here is a video comparing the known good die to my die.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy7tjhGgVd4

I have seated bullets and had the shoulder buckled . I moved the die up and adjusted the seating stem accordingly and ,no more buckled cases.
maybe I'm not expressing my self correctly. RCBS dies have seating w/ crimping sted
I've been reloading for 35 years

[J-cat]

I am going to assume that what you mean by 'bumping the shoulder' if I am correct about that I would say that it is somewhere near 0.050 of the neck that is not being sized, not a simple place to measure though

Bumping means reducing the shoulder length from the bolt face.

If .050" of the neck is not being sized then it means the die is .050" too deep. As such, trimming .015" from the shell holder should not have resulted in any improvement. But it did. Why?

.050" is a lot. Did you mean .005"?

[thomashoward]

good luck with that. If they are properly sized down until they chamber, trimmed and chamber with a bullet you're good to go.
Then they will be fire formed for your chamber

all else is over intellectualizing simple problems

[Redemption]

This is one of the things Ive stated a few times, You know of a good way to get a real accurate measurement of a small area just above the shoulder that does not have a clearly defined ledge accurately within 0.001?

Can you see the area I am talking about? The area pointed to is not sized properly The area above it is.... That is with my die in the deepest possible adjustment on an unaltered SH its not a shadow, it is not buckled, it is a spot that is wider than the rest of the neck. That is, has been, and always has been what is stopping me from properly chambering my brass, it is a full 0.006 wider at the peak of that area than on the rest of the neck.

Bumping means reducing the shoulder length from the bolt face.

If .050" of the neck is not being sized then it means the die is .050" too deep. As such, trimming .015" from the shell holder should not have resulted in any improvement. But it did. Why?

.050" is a lot. Did you mean .005"?

[thomashoward]

indeed it's not sized enough. try some one else's dies. Bad dies are rare but there out there. I use RCBS or Redding Type S .

I had a similar problem sizing .41 Magnums to .41 special dimensions. would not size low enough to chamber so I got a custom die from RCBS.
in your case you could chuck it in a lathe and mill .005" off the bottom of the die. Shell holder won't help you

[J-cat]

That is not what is stopping you from chambering the case. Your chamber is cut to .342" at the least. You measured that spot at .341".

I wonder if Lee cuts these dies in two steps. Cuz if they used a one piece reamer and ran it too deep then the die wouldn't be sizing the bottom of the case to .467". The base of the die would be grossly oversize.

Maybe they cut the die using a body reamer and cut the neck separately and ran that reamer too deep. Still, it's a poorly executed die. I'd chuck it.

[Redemption]

I did do that in the video posted above.

indeed it's not sized enough. try some one else's dies. Bad dies are rare but there out there.

I had a similar problem sizing .41 Magnums to .41 special dimensions. would not size low enough to chamber so I got a custom die from RCBS.
in your case you could chuck it in a lathe and mill .005" off the bottom of the die. Shell holder won't help you

Except that if you compare the data taken the brass out of the known good die (which chambers fine) and the data taken on the brass out of my die (which does not chamber fine) the only major difference between those two sets of data is the OD measurement of that specific area of the brass.

I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is probably a duck. Either way it amounts to the same thing. The die isnt doing the job regardless of what any of us think of what the problem is.

That is not what is stopping you from chambering the case. Your chamber is cut to .342" at the least. You measured that spot at .341".

I wonder if Lee cuts these dies in two steps. Cuz if they used a one piece reamer and ran it too deep then the die wouldn't be sizing the bottom of the case to .467". The base of the die would be grossly oversize.

Maybe they cut the due using a body reamer and cut the neck separately and ran that reamer too deep. Still, it's a poorly executed die. I'd chuck it.

[thomashoward]

I did do that in the video posted above.



Except that if you compare the data taken the brass out of the known good die (which chambers fine) and the data taken on the brass out of my die (which does not chamber fine) the only major difference between those two sets of data is the OD measurement of that specific area of the brass.

I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is probably a duck. Either way it amounts to the same thing. The die isn't doing the job regardless of what any of us think of what the problem is.

Yep. that's a clue. quit trying to make a bad die work.

[liber]

I feel like I tuned into an episode of the housewives of orange County.

I'm learning very quickly that there are certain drama queens in the reloading forum which make it that way...best to humor them and hope they STFU occasionally.

One in particular that seems to derail threads on a regular basis... You don't need $800 worth of dies to get a decent 30-06...

[Redemption]

I have, for at least the last day or more Ive just been trying to get people caught up. That die has been just sitting on my workbench unused while I mooch my buddies die until either I decide how to proceed, or he comes to steal it back.



In the meantime I set up my test loads They are just waiting to be fired. I can hear them begging to me, 'Redemption, load us into the rifle, shoot usss! shoooooot usssss!!!'

Yep. that's a clue. quit trying to make a bad die work.

Im sorry but there is a 0% chance I am going to spend that kind of money on a die set. Nothing against anyone who chooses to do that but it is far outside of what I want out of my reloading process, and in conflict with several of my main objectives.

As for the Queens, meh I think that once a person is taught to do something a certain way and they have been doing it for decades and decades it is easy to get stuck in that way of looking at it. I was taught to shoot a certain way and I am certain there are some high speed low drag concepts used by those in the long distance shooting community which could aid me but the likeliness ill use them simply because I am told it is so is probably a lot less likely than if I discover it on my own.

But I hear you, I really do.

I'm learning very quickly that there are certain drama queens in the reloading forum which make it that way...best to humor them and hope they STFU occasionally.

One in particular that seems to derail threads on a regular basis... You don't need $800 worth of dies to get a decent 30-06...

[Capt.Dunsel]

Just out of curiosity , what is your case length trimmed to ? I didn't see any measurement listed , not going read the thread over again.

You did say you trimmed it , but was it before sizing or after ?

And if you want an idea of how to get the bottom of neck to mouth of case measurement , use a 9mm case slipped over the mouth of 30/06 to the bottom of neck/top of shoulder , measure full length of " spooning" cases , then measure your original 30/06 case and subtract it . Get the idea , hard to explain but easy to show .

from base to beginning of shoulder 1.9480 , base to beginning of neck 2.1086 , over all length 2.4940 .Mine were trimmed to 2.4940 . Measured these from cases resized in my Lee dies .
( yeah sometimes we retired mechanical engineers can get a bit OCD )

Seems you already did the diameter measurements .

[Redemption]

I get what you mean. I probably wont bother to take that measurement unless I elect to trim up the die.

I trim after sizing and I am at 2.494 as well. Remington lands tend to be deep and SAAMI spec is 2.494 and up to as short as 2.474 I unfortunately cant tell you if its 2.4940 because my Frankford digital decided to suddenly cease measuring yesterday so Im currently using my dial to do the job and frankly I dont trust that calipers with anything to 0.0005

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

Good idea on the measuring method, Ill have to use that later if I decide to trim the die.

Just out of curiosity , what is your case length trimmed to ? I didn't see any measurement listed , not going read the thread over again.

You did say you trimmed it , but was it before sizing or after ?

And if you want an idea of how to get the bottom of neck to mouth of case measurement , use a 9mm case slipped over the mouth of 30/06 to the bottom of neck/top of shoulder , measure full length of " spooning" cases , then measure your original 30/06 case and subtract it . Get the idea , hard to explain but easy to show .

from base to beginning of shoulder 1.9480 , base to beginning of neck 2.1086 , over all length 2.4940 .Mine were trimmed to 2.4940 . Measured these from cases resized in my Lee dies .
( yeah sometimes we retired mechanical engineers can get a bit OCD )

Seems you already did the diameter measurements .