30-06 Reloading issue

[Redemption]

Could be he just got a timeout , only time will tell

I hope it only a time out. I am not the type of person that wants anyone to be permanently excluded from anything.

I do know this though. I have never regretted asking a question more than I have this one. The sheer level of absurdity Ive witnessed in this thread from certain individuals is astonishing. Save a couple of reasonable voices I think I am more or less done with this section of the forums.

[Redemption]

I really wish I could meet up with you OP and check out this die that's causing all this huffing and puffing.

I will probably post a photo of a sectioned off cut away of the die, for posterity sake.

[Bumslie]

I will probably post a photo of a sectioned off cut away of the die, for posterity sake.

I just want to load with it before you cut it in half.

[liber]

Definitely not. Operator has done everything possible to make his, now obvious to all except you, bad die work. Not a case of operator error. Case of bad die.

I didn't see him answer J-Cat's question about the shoulder, if he did, my bad.

His numbers (which is really not clear how he got them) show .006" difference in the shoulder.

No problem for me, I'm not loading his ammo nor am I shooting them. It's up to me to ensure that my ammo is done correctly, not his as that is the ammo I'll be shooting. For all I know he's using the wrong caliber sizing die.

[Redemption]

I didn't see him answer J-Cat's question about the shoulder, if he did, my bad.

His numbers (which is really not clear how he got them) show .006" difference in the shoulder.

No problem for me, I'm not loading his ammo nor am I shooting them. It's up to me to ensure that my ammo is done correctly, not his as that is the ammo I'll be shooting. For all I know he's using the wrong caliber sizing die.

No the 0.006 difference is between the portion of the neck that is being sized and the portion that is not being sized (not all of the neck is being sized and no it is not from setup)

Now that said I need to make a retraction on the shoulder measurement I cant for the life of me understand why people didnt suggest this before or why I did not think of it before, but I remembered a better way to test than this 9mm/40cal empty case nonsense... J-cat is right about one specific thing. it is bumping the shoulder. I have always said I will be more than happy to admit any time I am wrong, and I will tell you how I realized it, and also what it means.

I was thinking of a way to try to prove or disprove the shoulder idea and it occurred to me that I could just use the transfer ink method to see where it is hanging up on my chamber. This is something done constantly in machining and I have no idea why it didnt occur to me earlier.

In this case this is easily done by inking the areas of potential contact and then mating the surfaces, such as in the photo below. This 40cal casing method sucks Im sorry, too much potential to be off by a bit.



At this point I chambered the brass and forced it to lock down. After removing it I got the results below. Why did it never occur to anyone to suggest this?



Now as you can see the impression marks are full stop on the shoulder only. So I was wrong and J-cat was right about this. This brings us though back to the original point though that if this is only a neck sizing die, it would size the brass down to the shoulder, where as this die is not doing that. The die is still bad but I was wrong in this one aspect.

[liber]

No the 0.006 difference is between the portion of the neck that is being sized and the portion that is not being sized (not all of the neck is being sized and no it is not from setup)

Ok, I take your word for it, and I did jump in late and was just thinking it wasn't reaching the shoulder.

I have to agree with you the die is bad, and the one thing I wonder is that you bought it used from a guy who had it in storage...maybe it's not a 30-06 sizing die as I eluded to above. Just tossing that out there...but maybe it got put together with the 30-06 dies by accident, no telling where the dies came from. Is the die actually stamped 30-06 ?

Keep yer powder dry!

[Redemption]

Ok, I take your word for it, and I did jump in late and was just thinking it wasn't reaching the shoulder.

I have to agree with you the die is bad, and the one thing I wonder is that you bought it used from a guy who had it in storage...maybe it's not a 30-06 sizing die as I eluded to above. Just tossing that out there...but maybe it got put together with the 30-06 dies by accident, no telling where the dies came from. Is the die actually stamped 30-06 ?

Keep yer powder dry!

Lynn mentioned this before and I didnt respond to it because of the way he worded.

it is stamped Lee 30/06

[liber]

it is stamped Lee 30/06

Ok, but even if you cut it in half, I'm not sure you can tell too much without cutting another known good die in half to compare against.

Would be good to know what is fubar with the die, so others don't run into this issue for themselves.

Was Fordtrucks die also a Lee ? (I've probably asked you too many question, but being new to reloading I just wanted to understand what is wrong as it's not good). In fact, I would get rid of the ammo if you don't have a puller, those are only 25 rounds, I'd get rid of them so you DON'T shoot them by accident at some point. My $0.02...

[pacrat]

Ok, but even if you cut it in half, I'm not sure you can tell too much without cutting another known good die in half to compare against.

Would be good to know what is fubar with the die, so others don't run into this issue for themselves.

Was Fordtrucks die also a Lee ? (I've probably asked you too many question, but being new to reloading I just wanted to understand what is wrong as it's not good). In fact, I would get rid of the ammo if you don't have a puller, those are only 25 rounds, I'd get rid of them so you DON'T shoot them by accident at some point. My $0.02...

Asking questions is how you get answers.

OP's pic of dykem being rubbed off the shoulder of the case sized in his fubar die. Shows that the shoulder was NOT reset by FL sizing. What is fubar about OP's original die is that it is cut too deep. Which even after shortening his shell holder, still did not reset shoulder back to spec.

Many have put forth the idea it must be a mis-marked NECK die. Not supportable by the evidence. It not only doesn't reset shoulder as it should as a FL die. It doesn't size the neck far enough to even reach the shoulder, so not a NECK die.

First run of 25 rounds with resized bullets and neck are safe to shoot. They will be much lower pressure than properly fitted bullet to bore loads. As a matter of fact, he should shoot them. This will give him cases now fireformed to his chamber.

JM2c

[Redemption]

Ok, but even if you cut it in half, I'm not sure you can tell too much without cutting another known good die in half to compare against.

Would be good to know what is fubar with the die, so others don't run into this issue for themselves.

Was Fordtrucks die also a Lee ? (I've probably asked you too many question, but being new to reloading I just wanted to understand what is wrong as it's not good). In fact, I would get rid of the ammo if you don't have a puller, those are only 25 rounds, I'd get rid of them so you DON'T shoot them by accident at some point. My $0.02...

Fordtrucks die is also a Lee die and this is the only Lee die I have had a problem with (I have several other Lee dies)

Asking questions is how you get answers.

OP's pic of dykem being rubbed off the shoulder of the case sized in his fubar die. Shows that the shoulder was NOT reset by FL sizing. What is fubar about OP's original die is that it is cut too deep. Which even after shortening his shell holder, still did not reset shoulder back to spec.

Many have put forth the idea it must be a mis-marked NECK die. Not supportable by the evidence. It not only doesn't reset shoulder as it should as a FL die. It doesn't size the neck far enough to even reach the shoulder, so not a NECK die.

First run of 25 rounds with resized bullets and neck are safe to shoot. They will be much lower pressure than properly fitted bullet to bore loads. As a matter of fact, he should shoot them. This will give him cases now fireformed to his chamber.

JM2c

I agree with pacrat on his opinion of the whats and whys on all accounts. It was/is important to me to keep as many of the facts straight as possible which is why I retracted my earlier words on the Shoulder. If anything that test only serves to further prove that my presumably FL 30-06 die is cut too deep and therefore not properly sizing my brass.

As for the first 25 run, I am going to fire them, I did pull 1 with a set of plyers and it does not seem to me there is any additional tension. They just wont fire well. The seconds run of 25 are perfect. they are great, chamber well (were sized with Fordtrucks die)

[Capt.Dunsel]

OK . What are the last characters stamped in the die , didn't show in picture? Would give an idea if it is neck only die like most Lee dies.

Now before destroying the die by saw blade try this,

Take a case that your can sacrifice and cut it off about 3/8 inch above head
Make sure to debur the new case mouth ( haha)

Remove decapping pin from die , install it into press . Oil the inside good by running a patch soaked in oil.

Now run your sacrificial case head in shell holder as you normally would .

Here comes the fun part , fill the die with cerro safe , making a cast of the die .

Carefully , through the top where the decapping pin used to be , push out the cast , you'll be able to see the shoulder and make some measurements of what comes out to compare to a known good case . With the case head on the end you'll have a datum point to measure from ( case head to shoulder ) .

If it works you'll know exactly what happened.

Yeah I know , lot of work on a scrap die , and me being retired M.E. with nothing better to work on ( haha ) need to know . Maybe even more than you do ( it has been making me think and keep my feeble mind active )

Good luck with what ever you decide to do .

Edit : found out what the last 2 characters are that are stamped on the dies , they are date codes so they know when they were made .
Fordtrucks dies code out to (H) August (3) 2003 or 2013 depending on when purchased , Redemptions ( could be a B) January 2006

[Redemption]

OK . What are the last characters stamped in the die , didn't show in picture? Would give an idea if it is neck only die like most Lee dies.

Now before destroying the die by saw blade try this,

Take a case that your can sacrifice and cut it off about 3/8 inch above head
Make sure to debur the new case mouth ( haha)

Remove decapping pin from die , install it into press . Oil the inside good by running a patch soaked in oil.

Now run your sacrificial case head in shell holder as you normally would .

Here comes the fun part , fill the die with cerro safe , making a cast of the die .

Carefully , through the top where the decapping pin used to be , push out the cast , you'll be able to see the shoulder and make some measurements of what comes out to compare to a known good case . With the case head on the end you'll have a datum point to measure from ( case head to shoulder ) .

If it works you'll know exactly what happened.

Yeah I know , lot of work on a scrap die , and me being retired M.E. with nothing better to work on ( haha ) need to know . Maybe even more than you do ( it has been making me think and keep my feeble mind active )

Good luck with what ever you decide to do .

Lee 30/06-86 I have no idea what the purpose of the last two numbers are for. Couldnt find a refrence to em anywhere.

Fordtrucks die says Lee 30/06-H3

Not really interested in all the time involved in taking a casting. I know it would make for an interesting time but Im not going to buy all those supplies for the sake of a $30 die.

[liber]

As for the first 25 run, I am going to fire them

I thought you said they wouldn't chamber? Will you force them in?

[liber]

Asking questions is how you get answers.

Wouldn't this entire thread have been spared had Redemption had a case gauge to begin with? Seems he would have instantly noticed that the case was being sized incorrectly.

[Bumslie]

Wouldn't this entire thread have been spared had Redemption had a case gauge to begin with?

Nope