30-06 Reloading issue

[JMP]

I'm going off your first post where you stated that an empty resized case would not chamber but a resized loaded round chambered "fine".

Now you add that the empty resized case chambers but the bolt closes with a lot of resistance.

But I'm intrigued why a resized loaded round chambers "fine".

I think you nailed it for anyone that understands reloading.

[Redemption]

That was more or less a little diner I stopped at along the road to figure out what I know now. I mean if we really want to get into that, loading a loaded 30-06 round into a sizing die with no extractor pin will size the OD to 0.294 so more or less that round is going to fit in any 30-06 chamber regardless of any other factor because it is improperly sized, it was an idiot thing I did early on while trying to figure out why the loaded rounds were at that time not fitting into my chamber, but at no time when talking about brass that wont lock down reasonably in my chamber was I ever talking about loaded rounds that had been in the sizing die as loaded rounds.

I am not immune to making idiot mistakes, at no point will I ever claim to be fault free, Does that clear that up?

I'm going off your first post where you stated that an empty resized case would not chamber but a resized loaded round chambered "fine".

Now you add that the empty resized case chambers but the bolt closes with a lot of resistance.

But I'm intrigued why a resized loaded round chambers "fine".

Concentricity can be measured in this case much easier than depth, those numbers can be attained by reading the brass that comes out of the deep cut die. Shoulder angle can be read as well but is slightly more difficult to read than concentricity. So really so far all I know is that the depth is defective

"Now, the other thing that I hope you learned, and this we can all agree that a big lesson out of this is to size one piece of brass and check the fit before sizing the other 799 pieces as that would have saved some headache."

Some headache? I dont count this as a small headache trust me when I say it is an absolute nightmare doing the same brass AGAIN on every downstroke of the lever is a reminder to me that I had better do my measurements and double check when I am in this situation. It is a mistake that wont happen again, not a chance in hell.

What you probably should have done would be to take up Lynn's offer of getting your die replaced. Anyhow, that's probably now off the table after you folks' misunderstanding.

It's a very inexpensive die and so are shell holders. You can trim either one to get it to fit and it is no big deal if that is what it takes.

I do not know why people are saying that shaving a shellholder will put it out of spec. You set the die based on the chamber, and SAAMI is really not relevant; it is simply a baseline. Ultimately, the best way to size your brass is with a die that is fit to your chamber. By trimming the shellholder, you are opening the shellholder up to accomodate MORE adjustment in size. So, it can always be used with another die; that's why dies have the lock ring around them. The die does not need to be flush with the shellholder, in fact, it shouldn't be. Ideally, it will just be very very close. This is evident by the fact that Redding makes shellholder sets to allow for different heights.

Though more expensive; this may be worthwhile as your OP said that you also load 45 ACP. If you are using a single stage press, then you can adjust the seating depth with a different shellholder as well.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/525874/redding-competition-shellholder-set-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp

However, if you KNOW that the die is defective, why do you trust that simply shortening it will work? If it was modified by the prior user, for example, then you can have many issues such as concentricity, shoulder angle, etc. Thus, it still may not solve your problem.

I'd recommend this set:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/592320/redding-competition-bushing-3-die-neck-sizer-set-30-06-springfield

You will need a few 30 cal bushings that will depend on what brass you use. That's personally my preference for factory dies. Although, the type-S with Competition seater is also a reasonable choice. Obviously, there are a lot of other preferences out there. Personally, I think Lee does a great job for the price.

They are a bit more costly than the Lee dies, but if you are serious about reloading, you will be happy that you got them. For reloading, as you have found out in this exercise, the die is the single most important tool for reloading a cartridge.

Now, the other thing that I hope you learned, and this we can all agree that a big lesson out of this is to size one piece of brass and check the fit before sizing the other 799 pieces as that would have saved some headache.

Most people do not run into this issue at all because they shoot brass that comes out of their gun. As it fit the chamber through firing, really, just resetting the neck for tension is all that needs to be done to simply get a chamber fit.

[J-cat]

That was more or less a little diner I stopped at along the road to figure out what I know now. I mean if we really want to get into that, loading a loaded 30-06 round into a sizing die with no extractor pin will size the OD to 0.294 so more or less that round is going to fit in any 30-06 chamber regardless of any other factor because it is improperly sized, it was an idiot thing I did early on while trying to figure out why the loaded rounds were at that time not fitting into my chamber, but at no time when talking about brass that wont lock down reasonably in my chamber was I ever talking about loaded rounds that had been in the sizing die as loaded rounds.

I am not immune to making idiot mistakes, at no point will I ever claim to be fault free, Does that clear that up?

No. I'm not talking about the idiot part. I'm asking if your sized empty case is slightly oversize so that you are able to close the bolt with a lot of resistance, then why does your sized loaded round chamber easily when both are sized by the same die. Someone suggested to me that when the bullet is being swaged down by the die, the whole neck gets pushed into the shoulder which bumps the shoulder enough for the round to chamber.

But if you are say .002" over min headspace then you should not have to shave .015" off the shell holder. Shave .005" instead.

You should really compare the shoulder length of your fired cases to your resized cases. You can do this using a .40 S&W case by placing it over the neck and indexing it's case mouth over the rifle case's shoulder.

[Redemption]

When you size brass with no extractor pin it sizes the ID to 0.294 when you size it with the extractor pin it sizes to 0.304 because of the ID drawing portion of the die.

if I take an empty non primed 30-06 brass and put it in my die with the extractor pin in it does not size all the way down to the shoulder. If I were to take an guess at it, just a stab in the dark I would say that by sizing the round with no pin, I may have been pushing the unsized part down just enough to get it to chamber easily. I mean we are talking about tiny tiny tiny increments of size. But I do know that the die isnt sizing down to the shoulder because I can visibly see that it isnt on visual inspection of empty brass.

(I dont know if shoulder length is really the factor here as much as the edge where the neck turns into the shoulder is not very crisp on the unsized brass)

No. I'm not talking about the idiot part. I'm asking if your sized empty case is slightly oversize so that you are able to close the bolt with a lot of resistance, then why does your sized loaded round chamber easily when both are sized by the same die. Someone suggested to me that when the bullet is being swaged down by the die, the whole neck gets pushed into the shoulder which bumps the shoulder enough for the round to chamber.

But if you are say .002" over min headspace then you should not have to shave .015" off the shell holder. Shave .005" instead.

You should really compare the shoulder length of your fired cases to your resized cases. You can do this using a .40 S&W case by placing it over the neck and indexing it's case mouth over the rifle case's shoulder.

[JMP]

Sorry to be naive, but what is an extractor pin?

[pacrat]

Sorry to be naive, but what is an extractor pin?

I believe what our young friend is refering to is the decapping pin/expander button.

[Redemption]

Outside of reloading it would just be called an extruding part...

[JMP]

I believe what our young friend is refering to is the decapping pin/expander button.

Oh, I see. Now it makes more sense. I don't use expander balls. So, in this particular die, it's 0.310" to 0.294" to 0.304". sizing down 0.016" and popping back 0.010" seems like a lot of work on the neck. That's why I don't use them. OP, that's one other thing to consider about your sizing. Depending on your results, you may a die that doesn't work your brass so much. (Sidebar, just something to consider.)

Carry on.

[Redemption]

Def not off the table really but if I do that it will be down the road a bit

Oh, I see. Now it makes more sense. I don't use expander balls. So, in this particular die, it's 0.310" to 0.294" to 0.304". sizing down 0.016" and popping back 0.010" seems like a lot of work on the neck. That's why I don't use them. OP, that's one other thing to consider about your sizing. Depending on your results, you may a die that doesn't work your brass so much. (Sidebar, just something to consider.)

Carry on.

[pacrat]

JMP said

My responses in bold

It's a very inexpensive die and so are shell holders. You can trim either one to get it to fit and it is no big deal if that is what it takes.

I agree with this observation and always have. In this instance with the early belief on OP's part that trimming height on his SH would solve his problem. The OP thinned his SH to the point of destruction before he got a case to even size the entire case neck. According to his measurement he IIRC thinned it .015". That only left .0115" above the deck of the SH which started at .1265". Subtracting the extractor groove from that .0115" leaves very little meat in the lip. His SH self destructed on extraction of last case he sized with it. Proving that no amount of SH thinning will work for him.

OP is dealing with a lot of cases that were not fired in his rifle. They as he recieved them will not chamber in his rifle, after sizing in his die, still won't chamber. Modifying SH not an option for him. He's BTDT. Only option left is to trim the die.


I do not know why people are saying that shaving a shellholder will put it out of spec. You set the die based on the chamber, and SAAMI is really not relevant; it is simply a baseline. Ultimately, the best way to size your brass is with a die that is fit to your chamber. By trimming the shellholder, you are opening the shellholder up to accomodate MORE adjustment in size. So, it can always be used with another die; that's why dies have the lock ring around them. The die does not need to be flush with the shellholder, in fact, it shouldn't be. Ideally, it will just be very very close. This is evident by the fact that Redding makes shellholder sets to allow for different heights.

Response to underlined.

Because if you modify the height of a SH from the original .125" it is technically "out of spec". Not ruined, not useless or only usable with any other brass. Read post # 100, I explain it fully there.

Everything else in this quote I also agree with

As to the Redding adjustable SH set. In this instance would be a waste of money. They only go to .010". Still .005" short of the .015" matl already removed from original SH.

Spending in the vicinity of $250 for a set of dies is just not a thing an average ocassional shooter or hunter, reloader does.

No matter what the supposedly astronomical odds are of getting a bad die. I've gotten 2 over the last 48 yrs. Both RCBS standard FL dies. A .308 win FL sizer that was too deep. [fixed it by trimming bottom] And a 22-250 that was too shallow. Crushed case just below shoulder. It went back to Oroville.

[J-cat]

When you size brass with no extractor pin it sizes the ID to 0.294 when you size it with the extractor pin it sizes to 0.304 because of the ID drawing portion of the die.

if I take an empty non primed 30-06 brass and put it in my die with the extractor pin in it does not size all the way down to the shoulder. If I were to take an guess at it, just a stab in the dark I would say that by sizing the round with no pin, I may have been pushing the unsized part down just enough to get it to chamber easily. I mean we are talking about tiny tiny tiny increments of size. But I do know that the die isnt sizing down to the shoulder because I can visibly see that it isnt on visual inspection of empty brass.

(I dont know if shoulder length is really the factor here as much as the edge where the neck turns into the shoulder is not very crisp on the unsized brass)

The shoulder length is the primary factor controlling headspace. The resistance you are feeling when closing the bolt is the bolt face pushing on the case head which is pushing the shoulder against the chamber.

The fact the neck isn't being sized all the way down may indicate the shoulder isn't being touched by the die. But to know for sure you have to measure and compare shoulder length before and after sizing.

One more thing: is the die sizing the bottom of the case?

[FLIGHT762]

if I take an empty non primed 30-06 brass and put it in my die with the extractor pin in it does not size all the way down to the shoulder.

Here's an observation that could be your issue. When you have the depriming pin (extractor pin) in place in the die, how far out are you setting the pin out of the bottom of the die?

One thing that will definitely stop the die from fully resizing all of the way down is having the depriming pin set too low and the bottom of the depriming pin is bottoming out and hitting the bottom of the inside of the case and stopping the die from sizing down further.

Your depriming pin should not not be protruding more than about 3/16"or .187" out from the bottom of the die. If it is more than that, this could be your problem. You only have the depriming pin protruding out just enough to punch the primer out without going too deep.


This does happen on occasion and is sometimes overlooked. The depriming pin HAS to be set properly.

[Redemption]

No not that I can see

. One more thing: is the die sizing the bottom of the case?

Nope thats being adjusted properly. For a moment I thought that may have been the issue but I adjusted it in case and there was no change.

Here's an observation that could be your issue. When you have the depriming pin (extractor pin) in place in the die, how far out are you setting the pin out of the bottom of the die?

One thing that will definitely stop the die from fully resizing all of the way down is having the depriming pin set too low and the bottom of the depriming pin is bottoming out and hitting the bottom of the inside of the case and stopping the die from sizing down further.

Your depriming pin should not not be protruding more than about 3/16"or .187" out from the bottom of the die. If it is more than that, this could be your problem. You only have the depriming pin protruding out just enough to punch the primer out without going too deep.


This does happen on occasion and is sometimes overlooked. The depriming pin HAS to be set properly.

[pacrat]

J-cat asked

One more thing: is the die sizing the bottom of the case?

Good question, but one that can be very hard to answer unless their are rub marks from the die, on the case web you can see.

In response to this quote in post #51

Redemption
As previously posted the headspace tolerance on a 30-06 is 0.015 inches.
Once you trim a die it is junk for other chambers as the area around the web will definitely be fully fireformed by the 55,000 psi pressure.
The problem. Is not with the fire forming for a larger chamber it is with sizing the larger brass with an altered die that is no longer capable of doing it.

Actually the HS tolerance for o6 is +/- .005" for total of .010". But in response to the sizing of web portion of quote. I said in post #63

Taking the required amout off the bottom to bring it into spec will NOT ruin it. It will FIX it.

I'll let somebody that wants to argue with the geometry do the calcs on how much a diameter is diminished. By making a .015-.020" cut off of a tapered cylinder that only has .475 of a degree internal angle. I'll make a guess at a few .00001s. Not enough that an average reloader can even measure it.

But since it is a fact that the die is already known to be too deep. And that it is a straight taper inside. It is also already that same few .00001s oversize in diameter at the mouth as is anyway.

Since I don't have the pencil and paper math skills to calculate such a miniscule amount in such a shallow angle over a given distance measured in thousandths. Or the software to do it for me. I asked some fellas on a machine shop forum I belong to for an answer. Many of them are gun builders and reloaders. After explaining about cutting an 06 sizer and wanting to know how much the dia. is diminished for every .010" removed from the lenght. ......Reply below.

pacrat,
( for every .010" removed from a tapered cyl with a [.475 degree] inclusine internal taper the ID of the cyl is reduced by .0001648").

+2 would be .0003296"

Certainly not enough to matter regarding the web of a case being sized.

IMO the web dia is not affected to the point of unusability by shortening a die .020". And for the average reloader, it is such a miniscule diameter change that it is not even measurable. So for practical purposes irrelevant for chamberability. Unless cases were previously fired in a damaged chamber like "glocked" pistol cases. Or some sad SMLE .303 rifles I've seen.

[Redemption]

I have no way of knowing for sure but the PO of the brass stated that "I purchased them for my Garand but I havnt shot it in a long time so this brass is just collecting dust."

Some of the brass had patterns I feel are consistent with Garand chamber extraction. of the 800 rnds probably 2/3 of them were tri crimped on the primer pocket when I got them. Of the other 1/3 about 1/2 of them had a slight step around the primer pocket, or basically a rim that was slightly lower than the case head and were weather sealed red. The other half did not have the lowered rim but were weather sealed green.

However all of the brass being used in this is from the stuff that used to have a crimped primer pocket.