30-06 Reloading issue

[J-cat]

Except that if you compare the data taken the brass out of the known good die (which chambers fine) and the data taken on the brass out of my die (which does not chamber fine) the only major difference between those two sets of data is the OD measurement of that specific area of the brass.

I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is probably a duck. Either way it amounts to the same thing. The die isnt doing the job regardless of what any of us think of what the problem is.

Do you understand that a .341" diameter neck is NOT the cause of difficult chambering in a .342" chamber?

[Redemption]

Update: rezeroed my dial calipers and redid this measurement (before it was reading 0.3415 but as stated I dont trust it with measurements less than 0.001) At its widest point I am now getting 0.342 This is an old dial caliper from when I went to school and it has seen a lot of use, tends to shift off of true zero when I open up the jaws too fast, in the midst of taking these measurements it must have come off zero. Here is a photo for reference.

Do you understand that a .341" diameter neck is NOT the cause of difficult chambering in a .342" chamber?

[JMP]

pacrat, I am sorry if I misunderstood and misinterpreted you. Going back, the way you tend to quote posts and bolt certain things makes it a little confusing between what you are quoting and what you are saying. The facepalm emoticon does no favors.

And, yes, I like to make sure I have dies with good capability because the die is the single most important reloading tool you use. You have no control over the formation of your brass other than your die and your chamber. But, OP has it right. If you are going to use cheap dies, I say go Lee or RCBS all the way. Hornady is the one brand of dies that I have found simply don't hack it; they aren't strong enough. Each person is a bit different depending on how he shoots.

As far as drama queens and such, if the post is loaded with them and you aren't subscribed to the thread, there's no need to click on the link. I think there is a reasonable discussion going on.

There's a lot of good technical information here. Heck, I didn't know my small shell holders are 0.125" in the base since I generally size to the chamber and not the shell holder and I like a dial to get me there rather than trial and error with a lock ring.

It seems like there is a lot of good technical information posted by J-cat, Lynn, and others. Last I heard was that Lynn was up in the mountains setting up for a small match tomorrow as he got there late after his truck broke down. He says hello, and like I said, he's learning to use the internet. He didn't know what he was getting banned for giving a $30 donation to WW, and calling Lee to get a replacement die with a can of wax for the OP to try (yes, I know the wax is a sore subject, but he was trying to help).

So, now that the OP has some rounds loaded and ready, hopefully he can get out to the range and give them a test. Now, a lot of this issue will go away once the brass is formed in his chamber.

For the OP, I do highly recommend that if you get scrap brass that you sort them by headstamp at a minimum. The problem is that everyone and his brother makes 30 cal brass, so the way the capacities are, it's tough.

In fact, that's one of the reasons I especially suggest dies that give proper neck tension because those damn expander balls really work your brass over and can mess with concentricity. When I reload brass, at no point does my die touch the inside of the case except to punch out the primer from the old load. This is why good dies aren't just expensive, you also save money in the long run.

It's much like getting Lapua brass. Folks seem to think that it is expensive, but it'll almost always end up cheaper in the long run.

Anyhow, we will be waiting for the range report and continue or peacefully have a resolution to this thread that for whatever reason folks think it is drama filled.

[Redemption]

Except that the notion from Lynn was that the die was fine. That information was in fact wrong. Out of all of the people to hang out and give information in this thread the information pacrat has given has been probably the most solid.

His issue has been that some of the people who have come in have intentionally misquoted him (and he is right, they have misquoted him) and made value statements about what they are saying he said instead of what he actually said. There is however a lot of good information here I agree completely.

Now lets get serious, he did not get banned for trying to give a donation to WW he was banned because he was reported for being rude, to which I warned him several times to stop, I even asked other to cool it when I felt they were being rude. Instead of just stopping he basically told me to go ahead and report him, so I did. He was not offering to get me wax he was using the fact that I prefer mink oil as a value statement to attack the evidence I posted that showed he was wrong. Was he trying to get me a die or was he trying to trade me for a die so he could dissect my die in an effort to try to prove me wrong? After calling me a 'supposed machinist' because we disagree on what is acceptable for use as lube I highly doubt he had charitable ideas in mind. I cant even believe that what I am talking about concerns grown adults. I also dont think that the admin here are likely to ban someone after just one complaint, which would tell me that hes made a number of people upset.

It is because of this constant pervasive attempt to twist the facts that I have had to spend more time posting on a topic that by any logical standard and any person who has the level of experience they do should be able to see stands on its own feet, and yet here I am having to continue making that point almost 4 full pages in an effort to prevent the facts from being buried in nonsense.

I am sorry to hear he is having a tough time, I am even sorry that he is banned, and I am sure he is a decent human being but I havnt had a great experience with the guy and I doubt my opinion is going to drastically change any time soon, I also dont particularly feel like it being placed in the thread by people is really prudent, the repeated airing of dirty laundry and discussions of it really aught to be done in pm, since I cant delete your comments I am left only the option to address it or ignore it, and I dont particularly love either option.

To the idea that he is learning to use the internet he had at the time he was banned over 1,743 posts.... Who is going to agree that a guy almost two thousands posts in hasnt figured out that it is a no no to marginalize other people because you do not agree with their opinion of something that not related to the question at hand?

I do sort my brass, all of the brass being used in these examples are the same headstamp.

Dont know when Range day will be, My truck is down as well until I get it running again and smogged. Until then I am at the mercy of one of my buddies who is working 6-7 days a week.

As far as drama queens and such, if the post is loaded with them and you aren't subscribed to the thread, there's no need to click on the link. I think there is a reasonable discussion going on.

There's a lot of good technical information here. Heck, I didn't know my small shell holders are 0.125" in the base since I generally size to the chamber and not the shell holder and I like a dial to get me there rather than trial and error with a lock ring.

It seems like there is a lot of good technical information posted by J-cat, Lynn, and others. Last I heard was that Lynn was up in the mountains setting up for a small match tomorrow as he got there late after his truck broke down. He says hello, and like I said, he's learning to use the internet. He didn't know what he was getting banned for giving a $30 donation to WW, and calling Lee to get a replacement die with a can of wax for the OP to try (yes, I know the wax is a sore subject, but he was trying to help).

So, now that the OP has some rounds loaded and ready, hopefully he can get out to the range and give them a test. Now, a lot of this issue will go away once the brass is formed in his chamber.

For the OP, I do highly recommend that if you get scrap brass that you sort them by headstamp at a minimum. The problem is that everyone and his brother makes 30 cal brass, so the way the capacities are, it's tough.

In fact, that's one of the reasons I especially suggest dies that give proper neck tension because those damn expander balls really work your brass over and can mess with concentricity. When I reload brass, at no point does my die touch the inside of the case except to punch out the primer from the old load. This is why good dies aren't just expensive, you also save money in the long run.

It's much like getting Lapua brass. Folks seem to think that it is expensive, but it'll almost always end up cheaper in the long run.

Anyhow, we will be waiting for the range report and continue or peacefully have a resolution to this thread that for whatever reason folks think it is drama filled.

[J-cat]

Update: rezeroed my dial calipers and redid this measurement (before it was reading 0.3415 but as stated I dont trust it with measurements less than 0.001) At its widest point I am now getting 0.342 This is an old dial caliper from when I went to school and it has seen a lot of use, tends to shift off of true zero when I open up the jaws too fast, in the midst of taking these measurements it must have come off zero. Here is a photo for reference.

It doesn't matter.

A .0005" interference fit for .050" of the neck does not cause hard bolt closure. Shoulder too long causes hard bolt closure.

Twice now it has been suggested to you to measure shoulder length. I told you to use a 40 S&W case. Another person told you to use a 9mm case. Place it over the neck and compare shoulder length between your and FordTrucks die.

[Fordtrucks]

I say u just cut that ****** die in half and see if there was any imperfections or if the previous owner did some work on it. Hell a new set is 30$ and cutting it in half will put a lot of questions to rest in the this thread.

Just my view from here lol.

[Redemption]

The shoulders are the same......

This is where you are wrong 0.0005 is very nearly a press fit in fact it is basically a loose press fit.

It doesn't matter.

A .0005" interference fit for .050" of the neck does not cause hard bolt closure. Shoulder too long causes hard bolt closure.

Twice now it has been suggested to you to measure shoulder length. I told you to use a 40 S&W case. Another person told you to use a 9mm case. Place it over the neck and compare shoulder length between your and FordTrucks die.

I might have to do that, then place the die half in a shadow box dedicated to the people that dont believe bad dies exist. Hey when are you going to steal your die back Fordtrucks?

I say u just cut that ****** die in half and see if there was any imperfections or if the previous owner did some work on it. Hell a new set is 30$ and cutting it in half will put a lot of questions to rest in the this thread.

Just my view from here lol.

[Capt.Dunsel]

I say u just cut that ****** die in half and see if there was any imperfections or if the previous owner did some work on it. Hell a new set is 30$ and cutting it in half will put a lot of questions to rest in the this thread.

Just my view from here lol.

This is what I was thinking , maybe a "repair" from a stuck case and the reason for originally selling it .

My Lee die only does neck sizing , at least one of them , have an RCBS for full length for second hand brass . Once through it and after it has been fired in my Remington only neck in the Lee from then on ( once my dies are set for a gun I don't like to change them )

[J-cat]

The shoulders are the same......

This is where you are wrong 0.0005 is very nearly a press fit in fact it is basically a loose press fit.

It is a slight press fit but not enough to cause hard bolt closure. The camming action of the bolt exerts a lot of leverage against the case and the brass conforms easily. But not when the shoulder is too long, reason being the case body supports the shoulder much like studs in a wall support a roof.

But since you know so much about case sizing, I'll leave you to your problem. I don't want to get banned.

[Redemption]

That occurred to me as well. I think it is just as likely as it being a die that was bad out of the factory.

This is what I was thinking , maybe a "repair" from a stuck case and the reason for originally selling it .

My Lee die only does neck sizing , at least one of them , have an RCBS for full length for second hand brass . Once through it and after it has been fired in my Remington only neck in the Lee from then on ( once my dies are set for a gun I don't like to change them )

I agree the bolt does exert a lot of leverage against the case head...I dont know what to tell you J-cat. You asked me to measure the shoulder so I did, they came up the same. I dont understand why anyone here thinks that I would want the die to be bad....In talking with my wife and others about some of the perplexing reactions Ive gotten Ive always maintained it would be cheaper for me to be wrong.

Tbh I wasnt out to get anyone banned, Lynn did that to himself. I just figured the Mod would just chill the situation out. Since I am neither privvy to his reasoning or reasons for banning Lynn I dont have much to comment on other than to say that if you dont want to participate in this thread, no one will hunt you down and force you to do so.

It is a slight press fit but not enough to cause hard bolt closure. The camming action of the bolt exerts a lot of leverage against the case and the brass conforms easily. But not when the shoulder is too long, reason being the case body supports the shoulder much like studs in a wall support a roof.

But since you know so much about case sizing, I'll leave you to your problem. I don't want to get banned.

[liber]

Please do everyone a favor and quit top posting your replies on top of the quotes, your messages are VERY difficult to read. Please post your reply UNDER the quote as most everyone does.

I dont know what to tell you J-cat. You asked me to measure the shoulder so I did, they came up the same.

The problem is that you have never made it clear how you measured the shoulder, and from your prior comments you mentioned measuring the diameter of the shoulder/neck. When asked if the sizing die is sizing the body, you replied in post #131 it was too warm for you to go to the garage and check.

What matters is the distance from the head to the shoulder, not from the top of the case, not from the neck, but from the head to the shoulder.

I understand why there was so much drama in this thread, you have not given decent replies to the questions posed. I'm new to reloading myself, but you have been anything but consistent with your answers. It's your firearm and your ammo, as it is your face, so be careful when you fire it cause, as the Japanese say, "you can loose face!".

I have come to the conclusion that your cases are not sized correctly with your dies. IOW, they are not sizing the shoulder correctly and leaving it too high from the head. That's an operator error with setup.

[Bumslie]

I really wish I could meet up with you OP and check out this die that's causing all this huffing and puffing.

[Capt.Dunsel]

Tbh I wasnt out to get anyone banned, Lynn did that to himself. I just figured the Mod would just chill the situation out. Since I am neither privvy to his reasoning or reasons for banning Lynn ......

Could be he just got a timeout , only time will tell

[Redemption]

Please do everyone a favor and quit top posting your replies on top of the quotes, your messages are VERY difficult to read. Please post your reply UNDER the quote as most everyone does.



The problem is that you have never made it clear how you measured the shoulder, and from your prior comments you mentioned measuring the diameter of the shoulder/neck. When asked if the sizing die is sizing the body, you replied in post #131 it was too warm for you to go to the garage and check.

What matters is the distance from the head to the shoulder, not from the top of the case, not from the neck, but from the head to the shoulder.

I understand why there was so much drama in this thread, you have not given decent replies to the questions posed. I'm new to reloading myself, but you have been anything but consistent with your answers. It's your firearm and your ammo, as it is your face, so be careful when you fire it cause, as the Japanese say, "you can loose face!".

I have come to the conclusion that your cases are not sized correctly with your dies. IOW, they are not sizing the shoulder correctly and leaving it too high from the head. That's an operator error with setup.

It is not a setup error. This has been the pervasive issue during this entire situation, people coming in and insisting it is one thing when the information clearly shows it is not. I did an entire video where I set up a KNOWN GOOD die and sized brass, labeled it 1-1 then set up my die on camera and sized brass and labeled it 1-2 and then showed how it is difficult to lock the bolt.

What is boils down to is that the good information contained within this thread has been flat out buried by people who either A. didnt read or comprehend wtf is going on or B. are stubbornly refusing to accept what is ON VIDEO right in front of their face.

This issue has been figured out for almost 2 full days, I moved on to sizing brass that 100% chambers fine using Fordtrucks die days ago. The proof of this issue being figured out is on video. The Shoulder is not the issue both pieces of brass measure the same in shoulder dimension.

We are now literally over 2 full pages into people arguing a long ago solved problem... So go ahead and insist to me again it is setup, or the shoulder, maybe if you hold onto that idea and insist it another 20 or so times I might start to believe it.

[pacrat]

liber said

I have come to the conclusion that your cases are not sized correctly with your dies. IOW, they are not sizing the shoulder correctly and leaving it too high from the head.

As did the OP, that is the reason for this thread

That's an operator error with setup.

Definitely not. Operator has done everything possible to make his, now obvious to all except you, bad die work. Not a case of operator error. Case of bad die.