30-06 Reloading issue

[J-cat]

I went through and processed about 800 30-06 brass and just did my first 25 tonight. I do not have a case length gauge but got my brass trimmed properly. finished up my first 25 and went to chamber up a couple in the rifle to see how they would do. I was having a real hard time getting the bolt into place and after a bit of research I realized that I had not reformed the step down in the neck enough...

Being curious like I am I ran a couple through my sizing die with the decapper removed (I dont have a bullet puller so I cant dismount them anyway) and resized the neck down to where they chamber fine.

Can you explain how a bad die, one that is unable to size an empty case so it will chamber, can magically size a loaded round so it does chamber?

This was before you cut down the shell holder.

This was with the standard unaltered shell holder. You sized a loaded round and it chambered fine.

So how does an empty case not chamber but a loaded case chambers?

[FLIGHT762]

This thread is an example of why I like to use a shoulder bump gauge. I have a preference for the Hornady gauge, but there are others out there. The gauge will give you numbers you can see.

You will be able to see the numbers (of the Datum measurement) using an accurate set of calipers from cases fired in your rifle and compare the numbers with your resized cases. You will find immediately that anything over .xxx" will not chamber in your rifle. You can then precisely set your F/L die to size properly for your rifle using that measurement.

The bump gauge just makes it so easy being able to see the numbers rather than using the rifle's chamber to go back and forth and guessing if your getting it right.

If you want to have a SAAMI minimum reference, you can take a "Go Gauge" and measure it. That number will be SAAMI minimum head space.

If you don't want to spend money on a Go Gauge, I was able to go to a local gunsmith who let me bring my bump gauge and calipers to his shop and he allowed me to measure several calibers of Go Gauges and take notes.

O/P, I hope you get this figured out. There's a major malfunction going on somewhere.

There's a reloading quote I like, "Reloading without mic's, gauges and Chronos is like flying without navigation gear, you spend a good portion of the time not knowing where you are"

[LynnJr]

The back and forth is a difference of opinion from someone who must have lived a charmed reloading life and never ran into a bad die but supposedly collects them.

Redemption
My collection of dies has over 60 boxes in it and your die would be the first die that was out of spec. I have a dozen or so dies that have been modified for one reason or another and in 40+ years of reloading a national championship two state championships and 4 world records I have never seen a bad die just bad reloaders.

If I step back this is what I see. A machinist who can't tell if the die he is using is neck die or a full length die taking advice from someone who thinks if you sand a shellholder it will only work with that particular die.
I am glad someone gave you a die that is a known 30-06 full length die. I now feel a warm glow as I drive by my local public range to shoot on private property were I won't have to wonder if the guy next to me is going to blow several people up.
I do wish you well and despite your love of mink oil put it on your boots and get yourself a tin of Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

[Redemption]

To clarify, it isnt magical, they will chamber but when chambering it is excessibely tight to lock the bolt

Can you explain how a bad die, one that is unable to size an empty case so it will chamber, can magically size a loaded round so it does chamber?

This was before you cut down the shell holder.

This was with the standard unaltered shell holder. You sized a loaded round and it chambered fine.

So how does an empty case not chamber but a loaded case chambers?

I agree with this but my initial presumption that the shoulder was at fault was incorrect since the entire neck was not being sized. I am not adverse to purchasing a go gauge at all and will likely pick one up eventually it is figured out, Lynn is just a troll who keeps posting his unwanted opinion.

This thread is an example of why I like to use a shoulder bump gauge. I have a preference for the Hornady gauge, but there are others out there. The gauge will give you numbers you can see.

You will be able to see the numbers (of the Datum measurement) using an accurate set of calipers from cases fired in your rifle and compare the numbers with your resized cases. You will find immediately that anything over .xxx" will not chamber in your rifle. You can then precisely set your F/L die to size properly for your rifle using that measurement.

The bump gauge just makes it so easy being able to see the numbers rather than using the rifle's chamber to go back and forth and guessing if your getting it right.

If you want to have a SAAMI minimum reference, you can take a "Go Gauge" and measure it. That number will be SAAMI minimum head space.

If you don't want to spend money on a Go Gauge, I was able to go to a local gunsmith who let me bring my bump gauge and calipers to his shop and he allowed me to measure several calibers of Go Gauges and take notes.

O/P, I hope you get this figured out. There's a major malfunction going on somewhere.

There's a reloading quote I like, "Reloading without mic's, gauges and Chronos is like flying without navigation gear, you spend a good portion of the time not knowing where you are"

What I see is a disrespectful person wielding advice that was wrong, shown to be wrong, then trying to bs them to get ahold of their stuff in an effort to discredit them. I shouldnt see any more posts from you disrespecting me, or that arnt strictly a photo of your donation. The next post from you that is disrespectful is going to be reported to the admins of the forum.

The back and forth is a difference of opinion from someone who must have lived a charmed reloading life and never ran into a bad die but supposedly collects them.

Redemption
My collection of dies has over 60 boxes in it and your die would be the first die that was out of spec. I have a dozen or so dies that have been modified for one reason or another and in 40+ years of reloading a national championship two state championships and 4 world records I have never seen a bad die just bad reloaders.

If I step back this is what I see. A machinist who can't tell if the die he is using is neck die or a full length die taking advice from someone who thinks if you sand a shellholder it will only work with that particular die.
I am glad someone gave you a die that is a known 30-06 full length die. I now feel a warm glow as I drive by my local public range to shoot on private property were I won't have to wonder if the guy next to me is going to blow several people up.
I do wish you well and despite your love of mink oil put it on your boots and get yourself a tin of Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

[LynnJr]

Redemption
Report away. I will put my skills up against yours any day.

[Redemption]

Good you have been reported. I am not interested in your skills or your advice anymore Lynn. You were wrong and you need to come to grips with that. This is a reloading forum not a troll forum. You need to learn how to interact with people in a respectful way.

Redemption
Report away. I will put my skills up against yours any day.

[Kestryll]

And I'll pit my Admin skills against anyone...

So knock off the bickering.

[Redemption]

Roger that Kestryll and thank you.

And I'll pit my Admin skills against anyone...

So knock off the bickering.

[JMP]

As stated prior Im not really interested in Imperial case wax, not interested in that debate and wasnt asking for advice on the lube subject, What I am using now sizes with no difficulty on a good die, I think on a matter of principal I will never buy or use that stuff ever, period end of story.

As for Redding Ill look into it, I have plenty of good Lee dies I am not a table top shooter and I am not looking to make 2000m shots in near lab conditions. I wouldnt consider something on the order of 0.015 to be just a hair long by chambering standards.... more to the effect of 3 hairs too long and in chambering that is MILES. I do agree with you that it would be fine to shorten the die.

I'd love to be able to shoot 2km in near lab conditions. Please tell me where you shoot.

Seriously, Redemption, this isn't about any skills or who is right. I really think the Imperial Wax, though a side bar, is something you should try. Just about everyone that shoots larger cartridges with high quality dies and brass will use it. For FLing, I'd not let a case larger than 223 even NEAR my dies. I've just had too many bad results without Imperial. RCBS gel works okay too, but the application is a PITA.

I see the head janitor has come to this thread, and I really don't want to come off as argumentative.

Lynn's typing can come off as abrasive, condescending, and arrogant, but he really really does know his stuff. I just wanted to try to explain why he kept bringing up Imperial. He is only trying to help; he just does so in a manner that doesn't always articulate well over the internet. He is still learning how to turn on a computer.

Believe it or not, he is actually improving. It happens sometimes. ar15barrels is another person I'd consider an expert that has come a long way in learning how to use the internet, and he too sometimes inadvertently offends people.

[pacrat]

Clarifying what I said in an oft repeated quote as to what and why I said it.

Paraphrasing general SOP instuctions for setting up a FL sizing, die to FL size bottleneck cases as given by all major die makers.

Press ram to top of throw...screw die into press for firm contact with shell holder...lower press ram...screw die in another 1/4 to 1/2 turn...lock die in place

This assures a slight cam over of press linkage. Fully inserting case to be sized into FL die without any related press linkage slop.

Which if all things are as they should be. Full lenght sizes entire neck area to shoulder, sets the shoulder back to SAAMI minimum headspace spec, and full lenght sizing the case sides down to the web to within .125" of the base.

In a perfect world, this is what happens, when FL sizing bottleneck cases using Manufacturers instructions.

Originally Posted by LynnJr

I agree that modifying a shell holder is the "simple fix" for dies that are "minimally out of spec" or a tight chamber. I have done so. Downside is that those shell holders themselves are now "out of spec" and only usable with that die for FL sizing.

Redemption

I couldn't disagree with this statement any stronger.
The shellholder should be able to allow a reloader to push a case 0.250 into any die. The manufacturers set them at 0.125 so the average reloader can make contact and still be safe because most reloaders don't set there dies up correctly. If they made the shellholder capable of more travel case head separations would be posted here twice a day everyday.

The portion of above quote in bold is "exactly" what I said. Quote was intitially ignored. After that. What it does not say is that sanding the height of a shell holder will "ruin it". Nor does it say it makes the shell holder "unusable for other brass". Or that a so modified shell holder "is useless to any other die once modified"

Reasoning behind what I said and why.

Shell holder and die in order to FL size a case. Act in conjunction, to create a case that meets SAAMI specs. If a die is as stated "minimally out of spec" [too long internally]. Shortening shell holder is viable fix. Because it brings the "geometric relationship" between the too deep die and the base of shell holder back into spec as a "pair" to again comply with SAAMI specs between base of case and datum of shoulder [aka-headspace].

Shell holder is now "out of spec". But it is not "ruined, usable only with this brass, or useless with another die".

But since it is now out of spec in depth [short]. If used for "FL sizing" using published manufacturers standard instructions on any die that is "in spec" and NOT long internally. It will/can create an unsafe excess headspace condition by overbumping the shoulders of cases it is used with. Other than the one it was modified to pair with.

Such a modified shell holder is not "ruined" but it is now "limited".

Example..... If OP's #2 holder had worked to solve his problem with minimal matl removal. All is good when using it with his o6 FL die that it is now "paired with". He could still use it with any other of the plethora of dies using a #2 holder. But only for neck or prudently measured shoulder bumping applications. Not for FL sizing say a 22-250 or .308 with in "spec dies", using manufacturers published instructions.


Perhaps Lynn would give his reasoning as to how a die maker. Could modify the design of a shell holder/die combo to allow, as he put it.

push a case 0.250 into any die.

Remembering that a die sets a given SAAMI specd geometric relationship dimension between the shell holder/datum [headspace]. That relationship is controlled by two parts. If one part gets longer or shorter the other part therefore "MUST" change dimensions by the same amount for the end result to meet the same specd headspace dimension.

Keeping in mind that shell holders are already made to be the thinnest they can be and still retain enough structural integrity to reliably pull FL sized cases from the die.

If you cannot make the SH thinner, you must in order to facilitate this deeper insertion, make the die body shorter at the bottom, do you not? But you have already asserted that that is not feasable because. In post #51, you said.

Once you trim a die it is junk for other chambers as the area around the web will definitely be fully fireformed by the 55,000 psi pressure.
The problem. Is not with the fire forming for a larger chamber it is with sizing the larger brass with an altered die that is no longer capable of doing it.

Your Reasoning?

This has been a very informative, and entertaining thread. Hopefully it can continue without further aspersions cast. So Kes feeling the need to exercise his Admin. skills is unnecessary.

[Redemption]

I understand where you are coming from but what you feel comfortable doing and what others feel comfortable doing may be two different things. All I have asked for here is that people respect that I may not want to use the same products they do, and in an effort to avoid having to have that revolving conversation I made my feelings on the topic pretty vocally clear. I dont think having that opinion shoved down my throat is likely going to make me want to comply.

Pacrat just made his thoughts, which are my thoughts exactly as well about as gently as anyone ever could have. It is for this reason and others that I wont be quick to accept advice from afore mentioned person at any time in the future. Incorrect advice given abrasively is still the wrong advice. I dont know how to word that more gently. Had I been wrong here I would have been happy to admit it, certainly would have been more financially convenient for me to be wrong.

To proceed to bring into question my professional certifications as if my 'man card' was being pulled because he and I feel differently on the topic of Imperial sizing wax I think was a fair bit more than abrasive.

"but he really really does know his stuff."

This is the opinion I have kept to myself despite some of the assertions being thrown my way, and though I have my own opinion on that, getting into why may be about as fair as some of the assertions that have been thrown at me so I am not going to do it.

In my mind now the only question in my mind is if I will buy a new die or just trim the one I have. Leaning hard on option B here.

I'd love to be able to shoot 2km in near lab conditions. Please tell me where you shoot.

Seriously, Redemption, this isn't about any skills or who is right. I really think the Imperial Wax, though a side bar, is something you should try. Just about everyone that shoots larger cartridges with high quality dies and brass will use it. For FLing, I'd not let a case larger than 223 even NEAR my dies. I've just had too many bad results without Imperial. RCBS gel works okay too, but the application is a PITA.

I see the head janitor has come to this thread, and I really don't want to come off as argumentative.

Lynn's typing can come off as abrasive, condescending, and arrogant, but he really really does know his stuff. I just wanted to try to explain why he kept bringing up Imperial. He is only trying to help; he just does so in a manner that doesn't always articulate well over the internet. He is still learning how to turn on a computer.

Believe it or not, he is actually improving. It happens sometimes. ar15barrels is another person I'd consider an expert that has come a long way in learning how to use the internet, and he too sometimes inadvertently offends people.

[J-cat]

To clarify, it isnt magical, they will chamber but when chambering it is excessibely tight to lock the bolt

But they chamber "fine" after the whole round is resized?

That's the problem.

[Redemption]

What? No I am talking about brass here, just empty brass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy7tjhGgVd4

This link will catch you up to date on whats going on here.

But they chamber "fine" after the whole round is resized?

That's the problem.

[J-cat]

I'm going off your first post where you stated that an empty resized case would not chamber but a resized loaded round chambered "fine".

Now you add that the empty resized case chambers but the bolt closes with a lot of resistance.

But I'm intrigued why a resized loaded round chambers "fine".

[JMP]

In my mind now the only question in my mind is if I will buy a new die or just trim the one I have. Leaning hard on option B here.

What you probably should have done would be to take up Lynn's offer of getting your die replaced. Anyhow, that's probably now off the table after you folks' misunderstanding.

It's a very inexpensive die and so are shell holders. You can trim either one to get it to fit and it is no big deal if that is what it takes.

I do not know why people are saying that shaving a shellholder will put it out of spec. You set the die based on the chamber, and SAAMI is really not relevant; it is simply a baseline. Ultimately, the best way to size your brass is with a die that is fit to your chamber. By trimming the shellholder, you are opening the shellholder up to accomodate MORE adjustment in size. So, it can always be used with another die; that's why dies have the lock ring around them. The die does not need to be flush with the shellholder, in fact, it shouldn't be. Ideally, it will just be very very close. This is evident by the fact that Redding makes shellholder sets to allow for different heights.

Though more expensive; this may be worthwhile as your OP said that you also load 45 ACP. If you are using a single stage press, then you can adjust the seating depth with a different shellholder as well.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/525874/redding-competition-shellholder-set-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp

However, if you KNOW that the die is defective, why do you trust that simply shortening it will work? If it was modified by the prior user, for example, then you can have many issues such as concentricity, shoulder angle, etc. Thus, it still may not solve your problem.

I'd recommend this set:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/592320/redding-competition-bushing-3-die-neck-sizer-set-30-06-springfield

You will need a few 30 cal bushings that will depend on what brass you use. That's personally my preference for factory dies. Although, the type-S with Competition seater is also a reasonable choice. Obviously, there are a lot of other preferences out there. Personally, I think Lee does a great job for the price.

They are a bit more costly than the Lee dies, but if you are serious about reloading, you will be happy that you got them. For reloading, as you have found out in this exercise, the die is the single most important tool for reloading a cartridge.

Now, the other thing that I hope you learned, and this we can all agree that a big lesson out of this is to size one piece of brass and check the fit before sizing the other 799 pieces as that would have saved some headache.

Most people do not run into this issue at all because they shoot brass that comes out of their gun. As it fit the chamber through firing, really, just resetting the neck for tension is all that needs to be done to simply get a chamber fit.