30-06 Reloading issue

[liber]

I don't want to keep this thread going on forever, but I'll disagree that a case gauge would not have caught your issue. A case gauge, weather it is a Wilson type or the Hornady bump gauge comparator type or other, it would have immediately caught the issue of the die not pushing back the shoulders of the fired brass.

That is the reason I came to the discussion. I like using a gauge when setting up a F/L die. The numbers don't lie and will tell you exactly what is going on right away.

Thanks for chiming in, I know others do use case gauges for this problem, and why I asked to begin with. I also felt the case gauge could have caught this situation where the case was off by so much...we don't seem to be talking about .001" or .002", the case seems to have been resized much farther off the tolerance than that.

It does amaze me that people are willing to buy a genuine Remington bolt, and then get the cheapest die they can find. I'm not one to judge, just saying...Remington firearms are not noted as having tight tolerances, from what I have seen people say of them. They are not giveaway firearms though.

[LynnJr]

Clarifying what I said in an oft repeated quote as to what and why I said it.

Paraphrasing general SOP instuctions for setting up a FL sizing, die to FL size bottleneck cases as given by all major die makers.

Press ram to top of throw...screw die into press for firm contact with shell holder...lower press ram...screw die in another 1/4 to 1/2 turn...lock die in place

This assures a slight cam over of press linkage. Fully inserting case to be sized into FL die without any related press linkage slop.

Which if all things are as they should be. Full lenght sizes entire neck area to shoulder, sets the shoulder back to SAAMI minimum headspace spec, and full lenght sizing the case sides down to the web to within .125" of the base.

In a perfect world, this is what happens, when FL sizing bottleneck cases using Manufacturers instructions.

Pacrat
I was holding a 2000 yard match on the side of a mountain over the weekend but will answer all of your questions.
By your own admission and your SAAMI drawing there can be 0.010 headspace using this methodology which ruins accuracy and shortens brass life considerably. The two main reasons for reloading are to increase accuracy and to save money so setting up a day for maximum headspace makes no sense.

The portion of above quote in bold is "exactly" what I said. Quote was intitially ignored. After that. What it does not say is that sanding the height of a shell holder will "ruin it". Nor does it say it makes the shell holder "unusable for other brass". Or that a so modified shell holder "is useless to any other die once modified"

Reasoning behind what I said and why.

Shell holder is now "out of spec". But it is not "ruined, usable only with this brass, or useless with another die".

But since it is now out of spec in depth [short]. If used for "FL sizing" using published manufacturers standard instructions on any die that is "in spec" and NOT long internally. It will/can create an unsafe excess headspace condition by overbumping the shoulders of cases it is used with. Other than the one it was modified to pair with.

Pacrat
If someone has taken the time to learn how to reload they should take the time to learn how to properly reload. If all you want to do is drive the full length die into your shellholders and call that proper you are going against the two reasons for reloading posted earlier. As JMP has posted you set the headspace clearance up for your chamber so you don't get the 0.010 headspace you are promoting here.

Such a modified shell holder is not "ruined" but it is now "limited".

Pacrat
The shellholders is not ruined and it is not limited either. It now works better than ever. The manufacturers set a standard height at 0.125 so first time reloaders can get a baseline.

Example..... If OP's #2 holder had worked to solve his problem with minimal matl removal. All is good when using it with his o6 FL die that it is now "paired with". He could still use it with any other of the plethora of dies using a #2 holder. But only for neck or prudently measured shoulder bumping applications. Not for FL sizing say a 22-250 or .308 with in "spec dies", using manufacturers published instructions.

Pacrat
Again I can't disagree anymore than I already have with this.
Yes if you don't know how to set up a die it could cause more headspace but if your reloading you ought to be able to set up a die to fit your chamber. If you set your dies up correctly a sanded shellholders will work with any case that fits it with no ill affects.

Perhaps Lynn would give his reasoning as to how a die maker. Could modify the design of a shell holder/die combo to allow, as he put it.



Remembering that a die sets a given SAAMI specd geometric relationship dimension between the shell holder/datum [headspace]. That relationship is controlled by two parts. If one part gets longer or shorter the other part therefore "MUST" change dimensions by the same amount for the end result to meet the same specd headspace dimension.

Keeping in mind that shell holders are already made to be the thinnest they can be and still retain enough structural integrity to reliably pull FL sized cases from the die.

If you cannot make the SH thinner, you must in order to facilitate this deeper insertion, make the die body shorter at the bottom, do you not? But you have already asserted that that is not feasable because. In post #51, you said.



Your Reasoning?

This has been a very informative, and entertaining thread. Hopefully it can continue without further aspersions cast. So Kes feeling the need to exercise his Admin. skills is unnecessary.

Pacrat
I can't control what the owners/moderators do and I welcome there input on any of my posts. If they feel I am giving out bad info they can point it out or ban me at will as I am here to teach and not to learn. This is there playpen and I am merely a guest.
That said when you shorten a die it is indeed ruined. You have voided any warranty and you have made the die only useful for that chamber or one exactly like it. As SAAMI allows 0.010 worth of slop already and as you keep advocating running the die into the shellholder what do you do with a chamber needing all of the die? You end up seriously setting the shoulder back while attempting to size the area around the web which no longer gets sized by the now shorter die but in a spec chamber.
Doing further reading I noticed you said the Redding shellholders sets that come in 0.002 increments won't help because the die is 0.016 to deep. Those shellholders are in +0.002 increments not -0.002 increments so they would in fact exasberate the problem not aid it.
The confusion here was due to all of the wrong terminology used as has been pointed out and that so many changes have been made to the original story that don't fit in the puzzle.
Lynn

J-Cat all your posts were of course spot on.

[Redemption]

This is going to be my last post on this thread, because honestly this issue was solved days and days ago, the people that were wrong then are still wrong, the people that were right are still right. Ive learned a couple new things, chief among them to never ask a forum for help again, an opinion heartily shared by my local reloading place who gave me a knowing smile when I scratched the surface of the absurdity.

I have never seen so much name brand touting, as many unsupported value statements, or as many absurd valuations of peoples value based on something they cant see in front of them. If I didnt know that most of the people Ive been taking to are guys I would have assumed that this was a womens knitting club.

Lynn I am glad you are back, I am sure you have many years of misdirecting new people ahead of you. I however wont be one of them.

To anyone who thinks you cant make reliable distance shots with a Rem 700 you might want to open up youtube sometime.

[liber]

liber, if you want to compare what most experienced handloaders think of those gages. Look here

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1081469

I can tell you that after listening to that video which 8541 Tactical did, I wouldn't bank on everything he says. While he gives some good info, he's no gunsmith.

You can surely doubt a case gauge, as it's not meant to be perfect, but it certainly will get you into the ballpark closer than the 30-06 was in this thread. Sure, it won't be the best ammo for tactical shooting, but I would guess that the majority of people on this forum are not in that category anyway...maybe I'm wrong and if so, it won't bother me.

Oh, I see Redemption took exception to the Remington 700 comments. I was trying to imply that while it's not the best firearm, it's deserving of a better than cheapest die.

[pacrat]

Redemption,

This will also be my last post in this thread. You asked why a condition existed in your first rifle loading endeavor. And how to solve the problem. That was why you started this thread. As you said, you now have your answers. I hope my input was helpfull to you to reach that goal.

liber,

Would you please edit your post #195 to reflect that Redemption made the last two quotes, not I. Not that I disagree with either. [just that I've been misquoted quite enough in this thread]

JMP,

Thanks, for agreeing that we can agree. Some of the things we agree on is that I am not a guy with the initials SAAMI, or the guy who sets Reloading Industry Standards. But I am a guy who adjusts dies for proper headspace sizing of bottleneck rifle cases just like you do. One of the many things we also agree on is your quote from post #105

It's a very inexpensive die and so are shell holders. You can trim either one to get it to fit and it is no big deal if that is what it takes.

Lynn,

I've found your mis-quotes, mis-directions, mis-interpretations, obsfucations, projected mis-conceptions, and continual oft repeated assertions that crap you made up and proclaim is attributed to me, as things I've said, claimed, or even inferred overly tiresome. This last post of yours #197 is just more of the same.

Just maybe if you spread some strawberries or blueberrys on them. You could talk somebody into buying the waffles you have so many of.

I am here to teach and not to learn.

I honestly suggest you should first "learn" to read and understand what others are saying or asking. Rather than projecting your own preconcieved and incorrect mis-interpretaions of what they are saying or asking. So you can "learn" to teach from a objective fact based foundation.

I'moutahea laterz

[Ferrum]