30-06 Reloading issue

[Redemption]

Once my new shell holder comes in I will take a measurement....hopefully that happens soon.

1.948" from base to point of shoulder.

http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

But that is a tough one to measure without appropriate gages. Because it is listed as a "reference dim" from base to center of a .050" radius on the shoulder.

[Capt.Dunsel]

Don't know if anyone suggested it yet , but why not do a cast of your die like you do for a chamber .

Cerrosafe .

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=384

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d5DA4_OcuE

At least it would remove most of the doubt in measurements.

[Redemption]

Not a bad suggestion. I will probably do that once I get my new shell holder in and can remove the brass thats stuck in it.

Don't know if anyone suggested it yet , but why not do a cast of your die like you do for a chamber .

Cerrosafe .

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=384

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d5DA4_OcuE

At least it would remove most of the doubt in measurements.

[pacrat]

Not a bad suggestion. I will probably do that once I get my new shell holder in and can remove the brass thats stuck in it.

CerroSafe chamber casts are ok for measuring "diameters" within the chamber and checking leade-throat condition. And determining what an unmarked barrel is chambered for. But you can't take "lenght" measurements from a casting that is rough on both ends.

[Redemption]

CerroSafe chamber casts are ok for measuring "diameters" within the chamber and checking leade-throat condition. And determining what an unmarked barrel is chambered for. But you can't take "lenght" measurements from a casting that is rough on both ends.

I agree with this statement. I am more interested in looking at a cast to see what the angle of the shoulder of the die looks like, though I suppose I could just as easily stick a flashlight up to it and have a look.

a plaster with gloss paint sprayed on it would tell me a lot about the condition of this portion of the die, though it might be a lot of work for such a small tool. I will probably just bump the die down for a tighter chamber, post my results and load a lot of 30-06. After all I have about 570 Nosler projectiles sitting in box begging to me to be loaded.

[LynnJr]

OP is not discussing difficulty with a belted case. Different [orange], compared to a 30-06 "straight tapered" case designed [apple]. It is all about geometry.



In the instance of a 30-06 or any "straight tapered" case the opposite would be true. He has already ascertained that his die is [too deep]. Same as having a rifle chamber that is too deep out of spec on headspace of a "straight tapered" chamber. That means it is also overly large in diameter at the web. There is no "belt" to stop downward movement. So because of the taper. The deeper the case goes into the die, the smaller in diameter the die makes the case except the neck.

How do you fix a rifle thats chamber is cut too deep creating excessive headspace?
You remove matl at the breech end of the chamber to bring it back to spec.

How do you fix a die that is too deep and has excessive headspace?
You remove matl from the "breech" of the die to bring it back to spec.

Redemption, I've never has reason the make comparative measurements of the plethora of shell holders I have. After reading of your problem, and your holder measured at .1265".

I have 2 of the boxed sets of Lee holders, a box set of Lyman holders, and a crap load of various RCBS holders. I dug out the depth mic and started measuring. From a low of .125" to a high of .127" over the spread. My depth mic doesn't measure in .0001" increments. But all are within a .002" tolerance. And yours falls within that spread. .002" is actually a pretty tight tolerance on over 30 parts with an 1/8" recess.



Good question. Quite possibly you got it from some one who had the same difficulty, but wasn't a machinist. And didn't know how to fix the problem.



JM2c

Pacrat
I gave Redemption an example of the headspace tolerance.
I never said it was the same as a 30-06 but if you can show me that I will redact my post.
The length tolerance on a 30-96 is 0.015 and Redemption stated he needed 0.016 off the shellholder.
I am off by 0.001 or maybe he didn't need all 0.016 for correct chambering.

To the poster who uses factory dies for 40 years and has never had to work on a shellholder or die.
That is exactly why most shooters never get into wildcats or extreme accuracy. You can produce decent results with off the shelf parts.
If you ever switch from daily drivers to 6 second quarter mile cars you will quickly learn things need tweaking.

Redemption
As previously posted the headspace tolerance on a 30-06 is 0.015 inches.
Once you trim a die it is junk for other chambers as the area around the web will definitely be fully fireformed by the 55,000 psi pressure.
The problem. Is not with the fire forming for a larger chamber it is with sizing the larger brass with an altered die that is no longer capable of doing it.
And before I forget a turret or a progressive press is acstep down not a step up when it comes to reloading. The turret presses have more slop and the progressives are worse yet.

[Redemption]

After I had made that statement about bumping the shoulder by 0.001 I realized that there is a 0.0016 tall portion on the bottom of the case mouth that was not getting resized and that in essence the die was 0.016 from the shoulder at the top of the press stroke. I should have been more clear about this, that is my fault.

For the record I am using a single stage.

I own only one 30-06 rifle. I dont buy doubles in things (only double I have is my 2 mosin's and only because I got the second one for almost nothing) at this point I just want to get this brass ready for this rifle and new dies are only $30

Pacrat
I gave Redemption an example of the headspace tolerance.
I never said it was the same as a 30-06 but if you can show me that I will redact my post.
The length tolerance on a 30-96 is 0.015 and Redemption stated he needed 0.016 off the shellholder.
I am off by 0.001 or maybe he didn't need all 0.016 for correct chambering.

To the poster who uses factory dies for 40 years and has never had to work on a shellholder or die.
That is exactly why most shooters never get into wildcats or extreme accuracy. You can produce decent results with off the shelf parts.
If you ever switch from daily drivers to 6 second quarter mile cars you will quickly learn things need tweaking.

Redemption
As previously posted the headspace tolerance on a 30-06 is 0.015 inches.
Once you trim a die it is junk for other chambers as the area around the web will definitely be fully fireformed by the 55,000 psi pressure.
The problem. Is not with the fire forming for a larger chamber it is with sizing the larger brass with an altered die that is no longer capable of doing it.
And before I forget a turret or a progressive press is acstep down not a step up when it comes to reloading. The turret presses have more slop and the progressives are worse yet.

[pacrat]

Your 800 cases were undoubtedly fired in a chamber that was "deeper" than your 700's. Otherwise you could chamber the empties in "your chamber" without resizing.

Your dies are so deep that they won't even reach the shoulder of THOSE cases.

Standard off the shelf FL dies "should" be reamed to minimun SAAMI spec or a bit less. This allows the dies to be adjusted for the full range of SAAMI spec chambers.

Yours don't allow that adjustment because they are too deep.

Your shell holder WAS within spec.

You've already screwed up the shell holder and have to replace it.

THE ABOVE ARE ALREADY PROVEN GIVENS

OPTIONS as I see them at this point.


[1] You can buy a new set of dies for $30 to solve the problem.

That also leaves you with a FL sizing die that is only suitable as a paperweight.

[2] Or you can spend 5 minutes chucking it in a lathe, make two shallow passes. Which will bring it back into spec. And not spend the extra $30 added to the cost of the previously screwed up shell holder. And not have a left over paperweight that closely resembles a 30-06 FL sizing die.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

As I previously stated. It's all about the geometry. Consider that the taper of a 30-06 case is only [.475 of one degree]. As per Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. If you remove the required .015-.020" to bring the die into spec. The difference in diameter is so infinitesimally insignificant over that .020" at .475 degree angle that you would need an inside mic. or optical comparator capable of .00001" increments to even measure it.

Whether that is enough to warrant concern is up to you.. Your choice.

[Redemption]

Yeah thats basically what I am going to do. Only meant that if I need new dies for another chamber I can just buy another die set.

it is probably a moot point for the entire week. I went into the garage to start resizing the .223 I have on hand and the handle bracket on my press blew out. So I am more or less dead in the water till I ask Lee WTH. Why do companies insist on making things out of cheap pot metal?

Your 800 cases were undoubtedly fired in a chamber that was "deeper" than your 700's. Otherwise you could chamber the empties in "your chamber" without resizing.

Your dies are so deep that they won't even reach the shoulder of THOSE cases.

Standard off the shelf FL dies "should" be reamed to minimun SAAMI spec or a bit less. This allows the dies to be adjusted for the full range of SAAMI spec chambers.

Yours don't allow that adjustment because they are too deep.

Your shell holder WAS within spec.

You've already screwed up the shell holder and have to replace it.

THE ABOVE ARE ALREADY PROVEN GIVENS

OPTIONS as I see them at this point.


[1] You can buy a new set of dies for $30 to solve the problem.

That also leaves you with a FL sizing die that is only suitable as a paperweight.

[2] Or you can spend 5 minutes chucking it in a lathe, make two shallow passes. Which will bring it back into spec. And not spend the extra $30 added to the cost of the previously screwed up shell holder. And not have a left over paperweight that closely resembles a 30-06 FL sizing die.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

As I previously stated. It's all about the geometry. Consider that the taper of a 30-06 case is only [.475 of one degree]. As per Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. If you remove the required .015-.020" to bring the die into spec. The difference in diameter is so infinitesimally insignificant over that .020" at .475 degree angle that you would need an inside mic. or optical comparator capable of .00001" increments to even measure it.

Whether that is enough to warrant concern is up to you.. Your choice.

[pacrat]

Yeah thats basically what I am going to do. Only meant that if I need new dies for another chamber I can just buy another die set.

it is probably a moot point for the entire week. I went into the garage to start resizing the .223 I have on hand and the handle bracket on my press blew out. So I am more or less dead in the water till I ask Lee WTH. Why do companies insist on making things out of cheap pot metal?

That Sux,

It is my understanding that handle linkage blowout was an issue with early Lee Single stage presses. I thought they had addressed the problem. Suggest you contact them and see what they are willing to do to resolve the problem.

[Redemption]

Was reading their site, I honestly dont know that they will cover it but I am going to call and try anyway.

In the meantime Ive rigged it together enough that I can safely seat and crimp some of the 45 acp I have sitting around ready to go. I seem to be on quite the anti luck steak at the moment so one of the D clips on there flew off into the ether, Nothing like stopping by the hardware store for 1/10 of a penny worth of hardware lol

if I dont get a great answer or shipping is going to take a long time ill run by the metal shop and buy some metal stock

That Sux,

It is my understanding that handle linkage blowout was an issue with early Lee Single stage presses. I thought they had addressed the problem. Suggest you contact them and see what they are willing to do to resolve the problem.

[Redemption]

Spoke with LEE this morning. They basically refused to take any kind of responsibility for the defective part. The technician who was trying to sell me on their $25 + shipping upgrade to something they should have engineered better to begin with didnt make the sale.

Went and picked up a steel rem for $2 and built the part out of solid steel.





Need to trim up the fork in the back a little to get that last little bit of downstroke travel and then clean it up but for now its functional.

Now just have to wait for the rest of the replacements to show up and ill be a happy camper.

[pacrat]

Well Done

[LynnJr]

Redemption
I would be willing to wager the price of a new set of dies to the charity of your choice that there is nothing at all wrong with your die.

Unless I misread your earlier post you went 10/10 with the sanded shellholder and that brass did fit.
Chances are much better that your chamber was cut on the minimum side and that is why you need the extra adjustability.
And nothing here has been proven or that is the facts as described earlier. By shortening the die which no one here knows is at fault that die is toast. So you shorten that die and now your spending $30 to replace it and a $3 shellholder is 1/10 th that price and that is special give me a break.

Now you have a die that will bump the shoulder too much and not touch the web area on your next chamber. By bumping the shoulder you will shorten the life of the brass and get separations.

[Redemption]

I am not entirely sure you feel that shortening the die will cause it to be 'toast' Can you please explain your reasoning on this?

Fordtrucks and I came up with a simple solution to figuring out what what. I purchased a heavier duty single stage press from him today that will flex a lot less than my very disappointing Lee single stage. (so I will be removing that possibility from the equation) He was also kind enough to loan me his spare 30-06 die. So as soon as my shell holder comes in which will hopefully be soon I can test both dies in both presses and if my findings show a difference in outcome between the two dies then I will have as accurate findings as is reasonable without introducing robotic arms into the equation to throw the press arm. I should hardly need to believe that would be necessary to settle this question.

I should think everyone can relax a notch, I have yet to cut the die and If the findings turn out to be the same across all of the test brass I will be happy to entertain ideas that it is a brass or chamber issue (which I highly doubt but will be happy to concede if I am wrong)

Redemption
I would be willing to wager the price of a new set of dies to the charity of your choice that there is nothing at all wrong with your die.

Unless I misread your earlier post you went 10/10 with the sanded shellholder and that brass did fit.
Chances are much better that your chamber was cut on the minimum side and that is why you need the extra adjustability.
And nothing here has been proven or that is the facts as described earlier. By shortening the die which no one here knows is at fault that die is toast. So you shorten that die and now your spending $30 to replace it and a $3 shellholder is 1/10 th that price and that is special give me a break.

Now you have a die that will bump the shoulder too much and not touch the web area on your next chamber. By bumping the shoulder you will shorten the life of the brass and get separations.