30-06 Reloading issue

[LynnJr]

Redemption
When you have a minimum spec chamber the brass that fits it will be on the shortest end of SAAMI spec. You chuck your die in the lathe and take 0.015 off of the bottom.
You now buy a gun with a chamber on the maximum end of SAAMI which is 0.015 longer. You push the brass into the die far enough to set the shoulder back but because you have shortend the die the area in front of the web doesn't get sized at all. You have created the dreaded click on opening. Very few if any cases are lost to taper geometry each year but the biggest newbie mistake is to push the shoulder back to far and get early case head seperations.
I load for quite a few wildcats and sanding a shellholder is as common as chins in a Chinese phone book. Reloading dies cut wrong from a major manufacturer is like getting 6 numbers on Powerball 3 consecutive times.
I was one of the people who got the Lee press when it first came out and I snapped one of the bolts myself but I was sizing 50 BMG brass into 510 DTC at the time.
Here are a couple pictures to show you how far you can push a shoulder with a Lee press.
?

[Redemption]

Ok that I am well aware of. I respect your greater experience here but I feel like there may be an important detail you are missing.

At this point it isnt even a matter of bumping back the shoulder. At this point the die, when bottomed out in the press isnt even full sizing the entire length of the case mouth.



With the Die properly adjusted on a non trimmed shell holder the area in red is not being resized, this is not on just 1 case, this is on every single case in 800 brass. I am not sure the EXACT measurement of how much, it isnt exactly an easy place to get a caliper measurement from but trust me when I say if I have to verify that I bottomed out the die on the shell holder and gave it an additional 1/8 turn before locking it down one more time I might need to be put in a funny farm, and yes Ive tried it a little farther down and every variation any yahoo on YT has suggested. At this stage with nothing trimmed, bumping the shoulder isnt even in the cards, isnt even a possibility.

When I sized down the shell holder (before it blew out) I only sized it down far enough to get it to size to the bottom edge of the case mouth / top of the shoulder. I may be wrong but I dont think that brass is supposed to come out of the press with less than a crisp resize on the case mouth.

Redemption
When you have a minimum spec chamber the brass that fits it will be on the shortest end of SAAMI spec. You chuck your die in the lathe and take 0.015 off of the bottom.
You now buy a gun with a chamber on the maximum end of SAAMI which is 0.015 longer. You push the brass into the die far enough to set the shoulder back but because you have shortend the die the area in front of the web doesn't get sized at all. You have created the dreaded click on opening. Very few if any cases are lost to taper geometry each year but the biggest newbie mistake is to push the shoulder back to far and get early case head seperations.
I load for quite a few wildcats and sanding a shellholder is as common as chins in a Chinese phone book. Reloading dies cut wrong from a major manufacturer is like getting 6 numbers on Powerball 3 consecutive times.
I was one of the people who got the Lee press when it first came out and I snapped one of the bolts myself but I was sizing 50 BMG brass into 510 DTC at the time.
Here are a couple pictures to show you how far you can push a shoulder with a Lee press.
?

[pacrat]

It's not about lottery odds. It's about manufacturing odds. Math and geometry. With any given manufacturer making tens of thousands of dies annually. Odds are IN FAVOR that some will be out of spec. and make it through QA to the marketplace.

Congratulations Redemption you won the QC lotto. You got a bad die. It's cut too deep. I had an RCBS .308 die that was the same many years ago. I cut .015" off the bottom with absofeak'nlutely no ill effects.

You know it's too deep because as you've stated multiple times it won't even reach the shoulder of cases that are LONGER than your 700s chamber. So it is a proven that it not only needs a little "extra adjustability". It is so f'n deep that it is "unadjustable". It plainly shows as too deep on the pic of the neck back in post #5. Which Lynn previously commented on.

Taking the required amout off the bottom to bring it into spec will NOT ruin it. It will FIX it.

I'll let somebody that wants to argue with the geometry do the calcs on how much a diameter is diminished. By making a .015-.020" cut off of a tapered cylinder that only has .475 of a degree internal angle. I'll make a guess at a few .00001s. Not enough that an average reloader can even measure it.

But since it is a fact that the die is already known to be too deep. And that it is a straight taper inside. It is also already that same few .00001s oversize in diameter at the mouth as is anyway.

For S&G, turn your 06 die over and look at the opening. I don't have a Lee 06 die but checked my Lee .270 and my RCBS 06 sizers visually. They both have a pretty healthy radius at the opening. By removing matl on the bottom to bring your die into spec. Most of what you will be removing is the useless radius that does no sizing anyway.

Really just how many paperweights can a man find uses for on his loading bench?

[Redemption]

Exactly what I am trying to point out on almost every level. I agree with you completely but I am going to go through with the aforementioned experiment anyway. Just to prove it. Ill be recording it as well.

Why are people hanging on to this idea that the action is short? Which is likely to have better quality control? the $700 rifle or the $30 sizing die?

Knowing my luck it will be the janky cheap Lee press flexing that threw off the whole thing.

It's not about lottery odds. It's about manufacturing odds. Math and geometry. With any given manufacturer making tens of thousands of dies annually. Odds are IN FAVOR that some will be out of spec. and make it through QA to the marketplace.

Congratulations Redemption you won the QC lotto. You got a bad die. It's cut too deep. I had an RCBS .308 die that was the same many years ago. I cut .015" off the bottom with absofeak'nlutely no ill effects.

You know it's too deep because as you've stated multiple times it won't even reach the shoulder of cases that are LONGER than your 700s chamber. So it is a proven that it not only needs a little "extra adjustability". It is so f'n deep that it is "unadjustable". It plainly shows as too deep on the pic of the neck back in post #5. Which Lynn previously commented on.

Taking the required amout off the bottom to bring it into spec will NOT ruin it. It will FIX it.

I'll let somebody that wants to argue with the geometry do the calcs on how much a diameter is diminished. By making a .015-.020" cut off of a tapered cylinder that only has .475 of a degree internal angle. I'll make a guess at a few .00001s. Not enough that an average reloader can even measure it.

But since it is a fact that the die is already known to be too deep. And that it is a straight taper inside. It is also already that same few .00001s oversize in diameter at the mouth as is anyway.

For S&G, turn your 06 die over and look at the opening. I don't have a Lee 06 die but checked my Lee .270 and my RCBS 06 sizers visually. They both have a pretty healthy radius at the opening. By removing matl on the bottom to bring your die into spec. Most of what you will be removing is the useless radius that does no sizing anyway.

Really just how many paperweights can a man find uses for on his loading bench?

[pacrat]

Knowing my luck it will be the janky cheap Lee press flexing that threw off the whole thing.

No freak'n way even a cheapy aluminum Lee O-press is gonna stretch .015-.020". Maybe a couple thou at best.

Just looked at your press pic again. The die laying by the wrenches. Is it the 06 die? Look at the radius in the mouth.

Heh, heh, what are the odds that the 800 cases you have are also short? And your chamber is even shorter?

[J-cat]

Ok that I am well aware of. I respect your greater experience here but I feel like there may be an important detail you are missing.

At this point it isnt even a matter of bumping back the shoulder. At this point the die, when bottomed out in the press isnt even full sizing the entire length of the case mouth.



With the Die properly adjusted on a non trimmed shell holder the area in red is not being resized, this is not on just 1 case, this is on every single case in 800 brass. I am not sure the EXACT measurement of how much, it isnt exactly an easy place to get a caliper measurement from but trust me when I say if I have to verify that I bottomed out the die on the shell holder and gave it an additional 1/8 turn before locking it down one more time I might need to be put in a funny farm, and yes Ive tried it a little farther down and every variation any yahoo on YT has suggested. At this stage with nothing trimmed, bumping the shoulder isnt even in the cards, isnt even a possibility.

When I sized down the shell holder (before it blew out) I only sized it down far enough to get it to size to the bottom edge of the case mouth / top of the shoulder. I may be wrong but I dont think that brass is supposed to come out of the press with less than a crisp resize on the case mouth.

You need to use the correct terminology because your posts are confusing. The area you are referring to is called the base of the neck. The case mouth is the very edge of the case neck. When you are talking about sizing the case mouth people are thinking WTF???

I would not use the appearance of the neck as an indicator of how much the case is being sized. I would use a shoulder measurement. Use a fired pistol case and use it to measure the shoulder length of new vs fl vs fired out your chamber brass.

[opos]

I read some of the thread and it's too much info...one thing I might suggest for future things is get a Wilson (or other brand) of cartridge gauge for the caliber and use it to set up your dies...it's more than a "look and guess" type of thing...if you are a machinist you probably have a depth mic or at least a stainless straight edge...lots of info on the you tube on the use and they do work...I've "saved" lots of potential mistakes using a Wilson gauge...I have one for every caliber I load and they insure a couple of things (if used properly)..that the trim length is ok and that the headspace of the ammo (not the gun) is ok..and that all lets you set up your sizing die with confidence.

Here is a link to one on ebay for under 25 bucks .. http://www.ebay.com/itm/L-E-WILSON-3...item2801353fe8

As to dies that are out of spec...I had one set of 38 special dies that were "off" a couple of thousanths..would work ok except for when using RP brass (which is thinner)...no hassles from Lee to replace them and all is well...I don't "modify" things...I get them replaced or fixed by professionals.

[J-cat]

How's a gauge gonna help him? He bottomed out the die and the case won't chamber.

[Capt.Dunsel]

Just a random thought here , are you sure you don't have one of Lee's neck only sizing dies ? They do make them and they do not bump the shoulder in the least .

You haven't mentioned if you bought new or used die and press , so if bought used it may just be the neck only die ( can not tell from the picture , the tell tale section of the die is covered by the press in the picture)

Just re-read the whole thread , you picked up a used set of dies , mil brass . I would check to see if the die is the neck size only , there is no way to bump the shoulder with one , I have a neck only and a full length die set from Lee .

[LynnJr]

Pacrat
Please stop with the geometry. The taper has nothing at all to do with anything being posted here.you push the case in 0.001 and it makes the shoulder move. You push it in 0.001 further and the shoulder gets 0.001 shorter. No calculus trigonometry no geometry required.
He trimmed a shellholder 0.016 and 10/10 cases fit. The only thing that is proven or fact is that a $3 trimmed shellholder worked in what some here are calling a bad die
The only other thing we know is his press is now broken.
Did he put go and no gauges in his chamber?
The chamber is cut on the short end of spec otherwise his removing 0.016 off of a die that doesn't come within a city block of the shoulder on a die with 0.015 tolerance still wouldn't move that shoulder. We already know it worked 10/10 times.
That is why I recommended sanding instead of using a lathe.
Redemption
In a nutshell you took too much material off of the shellholder.
As you run brass into a full length die the brass gets longer.
If you keep going it stops getting longer and this is the point were the shoulder gets to moving.
If you keep going the shoulder starts to get pushed back and the neck starts getting longer.
I would wager you looked at your brass figured it needed 0.015 more to reach the shoulder and made your cut?
I would also wager on the downstroke you pulled the rim off of your shellholder?

[Redemption]

I think you are right. I think people are missing details here or there and I think I may have caused some terminology confusion. I do think though when I say "the base of the neck" or "the base of the case mouth, just above the shoulder" one should infer the same thing.

I read some of the thread and it's too much info...one thing I might suggest for future things is get a Wilson (or other brand) of cartridge gauge for the caliber and use it to set up your dies...it's more than a "look and guess" type of thing...if you are a machinist you probably have a depth mic or at least a stainless straight edge...lots of info on the you tube on the use and they do work...I've "saved" lots of potential mistakes using a Wilson gauge...I have one for every caliber I load and they insure a couple of things (if used properly)..that the trim length is ok and that the headspace of the ammo (not the gun) is ok..and that all lets you set up your sizing die with confidence.

Here is a link to one on ebay for under 25 bucks .. http://www.ebay.com/itm/L-E-WILSON-3...item2801353fe8

As to dies that are out of spec...I had one set of 38 special dies that were "off" a couple of thousanths..would work ok except for when using RP brass (which is thinner)...no hassles from Lee to replace them and all is well...I don't "modify" things...I get them replaced or fixed by professionals.

This is the point a lot of people seem to be missing.

How's a gauge gonna help him? He bottomed out the die and the case won't chamber.

Well I suppose I am not sure, How would I go about checking that? Also I am not trying to bump the shoulder. There was some mention of that earlier on and that is my fault because I at the time hadnt noticed that I am not even getting a sizing effect to the bottom of the neck, even if it were a neck only sizing die it is still not functioning properly.

Just a random thought here , are you sure you don't have one of Lee's neck only sizing dies ? They do make them and they do not bump the shoulder in the least .

You haven't mentioned if you bought new or used die and press , so if bought used it may just be the neck only die ( can not tell from the picture , the tell tale section of the die is covered by the press in the picture)

Just re-read the whole thread , you picked up a used set of dies , mil brass . I would check to see if the die is the neck size only , there is no way to bump the shoulder with one , I have a neck only and a full length die set from Lee .

Yeah I blew the lip of the shell holder off on the downstroke. If I sand that much material off the shell holder or pull it off in a lathe, or a mill it will be the same. I only pulled enough material to get it all the way down to the base of the neck, It would seem to me that the shell holder is the weaker and more prone to failure portion of the die so if it does come down to trimming/sanding anything it would appear to me that the die is the logical choice.

Negative, no I did not just take a measurement and then cut. I took a measurement, sanded a little off, tested it, sanded a little more, tested it, sanded a little more and tested it until it gave me brass that sized to the bottom of the neck. then on the last shell the holder blew out.

Pacrat
Please stop with the geometry. The taper has nothing at all to do with anything being posted here.you push the case in 0.001 and it makes the shoulder move. You push it in 0.001 further and the shoulder gets 0.001 shorter. No calculus trigonometry no geometry required.
He trimmed a shellholder 0.016 and 10/10 cases fit. The only thing that is proven or fact is that a $3 trimmed shellholder worked in what some here are calling a bad die
The only other thing we know is his press is now broken.
Did he put go and no gauges in his chamber?
The chamber is cut on the short end of spec otherwise his removing 0.016 off of a die that doesn't come within a city block of the shoulder on a die with 0.015 tolerance still wouldn't move that shoulder. We already know it worked 10/10 times.
That is why I recommended sanding instead of using a lathe.
Redemption
In a nutshell you took too much material off of the shellholder.
As you run brass into a full length die the brass gets longer.
If you keep going it stops getting longer and this is the point were the shoulder gets to moving.
If you keep going the shoulder starts to get pushed back and the neck starts getting longer.
I would wager you looked at your brass figured it needed 0.015 more to reach the shoulder and made your cut?
I would also wager on the downstroke you pulled the rim off of your shellholder?

Before this conversation gets heated I want to point out that Im not making any cuts again or doing any sanding until I test this with both dies and both presses. Since Fordtrucks put a known good die in my hands I now have a way to make a comparison. it will start with comparing measurements between the dies and and then comparing results between dies. There could be any number of competing factors going on here that cant be measured by equipment any of us own.

To address a statement about machining because I may have been unclear and understating. I am CNC certified on Mill and Lathe. I am not a garage hobbyist nor am I working in that field currently. That said putting my thoughts down tends to help me sort out competing factors as well as gaining experience from others. I respect your experience, all of you. Some of you will have different ideas about what is the problem here, I may not readily understand some of them and I may challenge them to gain more understanding. Some of you will be wrong, I may be wrong, any and all of these things are ok because no matter what happens some of us are going to learn something. In any event my shell holder is 'supposed' to be showing up today so I should have an answer before tonight.

[LynnJr]

Redemption.
Some of us have been at this a long time and have had to trim shellholder and dies to get things to work.
When the earlier poster said his die was off a little and thinner brass wouldn't work the more experienced loaders knew he was most likely talking about neck tension.
All dies are cut on high quality machining centers and treated to around 62 or higher Rockwell.
The brass itself varies and that is why he posted it worked okay except on one brand of THINNER brass.

As to Sanding of the shellholder. I brought that up because most people don't have access to a lathe. The posters here who have a buddy with a lathe don't sneak up on it they only want to have there buddy cut it once and they take too much off.
I know all of this because after 40 years of reloading on some of the worlds most accurate rifles the things we try at home when nobody is looking is amazing.
If you looked at the pictures posted above I own the same press in cast iron broke the pivot bolt as described by others and if you looked I have pushed shoulders a full inch or more on cases twice as thick as yours.
Do I think you can cut the bottom off of your die and make it work absolutely!!!
Would I cut the die absolutely not!!!
When you shoot guns with chambers on the minimum side of spec you run into these types of issues all the time.
If the die is bad Lee will replace it free of charge. If you cut it on a lathe they won't.

[Redemption]

Lynn, We are operating on the assumption that the chamber is cut minimum, we dont know that, we have no proof of that. We dont even have an indication of that. We do however have an indication that the die is not sizing the full length of the neck. As I wrote my last post my new shell holder was actually sitting in the mailbox. I have already done the test. The video is already up on YT. You will see it was not necessary to do the test on the RCBS press as the results I got on a known good die were acceptable on the Lee press.

This has nothing to do with the chamber in my opinion and everything to do with a die that is not doing what it is supposed to. That said, unless I missed something while speaking with Lee the other day about the press when it was broken, the warranty on Lee products is a 2 year warranty on Lee products you buy at a plaque bearing store. I bought these dies used.... Why would they be inclined to replace a $30 dollar defective die when they refused to replace a widely known defective $25 press part? At best they will charge me Half of the cost of the new part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy7tjhGgVd4&feature=youtu.be

Redemption.
Some of us have been at this a long time and have had to trim shellholder and dies to get things to work.
When the earlier poster said his die was off a little and thinner brass wouldn't work the more experienced loaders knew he was most likely talking about neck tension.
All dies are cut on high quality machining centers and treated to around 62 or higher Rockwell.
The brass itself varies and that is why he posted it worked okay except on one brand of THINNER brass.

As to Sanding of the shellholder. I brought that up because most people don't have access to a lathe. The posters here who have a buddy with a lathe don't sneak up on it they only want to have there buddy cut it once and they take too much off.
I know all of this because after 40 years of reloading on some of the worlds most accurate rifles the things we try at home when nobody is looking is amazing.
If you looked at the pictures posted above I own the same press in cast iron broke the pivot bolt as described by others and if you looked I have pushed shoulders a full inch or more on cases twice as thick as yours.
Do I think you can cut the bottom off of your die and make it work absolutely!!!
Would I cut the die absolutely not!!!
When you shoot guns with chambers on the minimum side of spec you run into these types of issues all the time.
If the die is bad Lee will replace it free of charge. If you cut it on a lathe they won't.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by LynnJr
Pacrat
Please stop with the geometry.

The taper has nothing at all to do with anything being posted here.

Lynn, please make up your mind. You seen very conflicted on this issue.

You tell me to "stop with the geometry". And "The taper has nothing at all to do with anything being posted here."

Yet, you go on to again explain your views regarding the geometric relationship. Between the die/ case/ chamber in a perfect world. If only we lived in a perfect world.

Resizing cartridge cases after firing has everything to do with the "geometric relationship" between the die and the case and the chamber they are intended to fit. The taper is part of that "geometric relationship". The "die" in conjunction with the "shell holder" form the negative elements of the process. The case itself is the "positive" element of the process.

I agree that modifying a shell holder is the "simple fix" for dies that are "minimally out of spec" or a tight chamber. I have done so. Downside is that those shell holders themselves are now "out of spec" and only usable with that die for FL sizing.

OP tried the simple fix and modified his shell holder to the point of destruction. Which still did not solve the "out of spec" die problem.

Your mantra of "don't touch the die", and your implied assertion that lottery odds dictate that the die is "in spec". Have proven incorrect by trial and error with the shell holder. What are the lottery odds that the die is not at fault? Are you entertaining the idea that all 800 of the OP's cases were fired in short chambers? And that his 700's chamber is even shorter than that the cases were fired in? And that must be the case, because dies are never wrong?

http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

Headspace tolerance of an 06 are +/- .005" from ideal datum of 2.053", for a total of .010" tolerance. This is the allowable "geometric" tolerance between a Go and a Field gage. Yet OP destroyed his shell holder which was "proven" to be in spec before he modified it. By removing .015" from it's top. And in doing so got {1} case, the final case at point of destruction to size the full neck.

SAAMI specs and the amount removed from the destroyed shell holder disagree with your continued assertion that the die is in spec.

EDITED to ADD before posting

Lee will only replace reloading equiment within 2 yrs of purchase to the original owner on warranty.

[Redemption]

would say that my test video supports what you are saying as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy7t...ature=youtu.be

Lynn, please make up your mind. You seen very conflicted on this issue.

You tell me to "stop with the geometry". And "The taper has nothing at all to do with anything being posted here."

Yet, you go on to again explain your views regarding the geometric relationship. Between the die/ case/ chamber in a perfect world. If only we lived in a perfect world.

Resizing cartridge cases after firing has everything to do with the "geometric relationship" between the die and the case and the chamber they are intended to fit. The taper is part of that "geometric relationship". The "die" in conjunction with the "shell holder" form the negative elements of the process. The case itself is the "positive" element of the process.

I agree that modifying a shell holder is the "simple fix" for dies that are "minimally out of spec" or a tight chamber. I have done so. Downside is that those shell holders themselves are now "out of spec" and only usable with that die for FL sizing.

OP tried the simple fix and modified his shell holder to the point of destruction. Which still did not solve the "out of spec" die problem.

Your mantra of "don't touch the die", and your implied assertion that lottery odds dictate that the die is "in spec". Have proven incorrect by trial and error with the shell holder. What are the lottery odds that the die is not at fault? Are you entertaining the idea that all 800 of the OP's cases were fired in short chambers? And that his 700's chamber is even shorter than that the cases were fired in? And that must be the case, because dies are never wrong?

http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

Headspace tolerance of an 06 are +/- .005" from ideal datum of 2.053", for a total of .010" tolerance. This is the allowable "geometric" tolerance between a Go and a Field gage. Yet OP destroyed his shell holder which was "proven" to be in spec before he modified it. By removing .015" from it's top. And in doing so got {1} case, the final case at point of destruction to size the full neck.

SAAMI specs and the amount removed from the destroyed shell holder disagree with your continued assertion that the die is in spec.

EDITED to ADD before posting

Lee will only replace reloading equiment within 2 yrs of purchase to the original owner on warranty.