30-06 Reloading issue

[Redemption]

We are already at the point where the shell holder is touching the die, so I am going to have to take my shell holder down a bit then.

Redemption
You can't wear dies out.

Take an empty case and see if it will chamber without a bullet primer of powder. Keep doing this until you find a case that won't fit.
Now put some Imperial Sizing Die Wax on your thumb and forefinger and lube the entire case.
Once that is done roll a cotton tipped applicator or Q-tip in the sizing die wax and run it inside of the neck on that case.
Now run the ram on your press all the way up and screw your die down until it touches then back it off one full revolution. Do not lock the die down yet.
Size your piece of brass and they and chamber it. If it doesn't fit give the die half a turn and run it through the die. If it doesn't fit now go in 1/4 turn increments. If you reach a point were you think the ram and die can't go any further you might have to sand the top surface of your shellholder with 80 grit sandpaper. This will allow the press to push the brass further into the die.
Once that tight fitting piece of brass chambers easily lock down the die.

If you do need to sand the shellholder go in a figure eight pattern so you get the entire top of the shellholder not just one edge.
I cover the top of the shellholder with magic marker to make sure I am getting the entire surface sanded.
Nothing wrong with Lee dies but the collet type dies need to be adjusted right are you don't get enough grip on the bullet.
If you want to pull those bullets just use some rose clippers to grasp the bullet and lower the ram. You can get a 5 gallon bucket and throw all of your junk brass and bullets in it. When scrap prices go up again cash it in.

[pacrat]

I was looking at a bunch of the brass and I started to notice a trend. The forming marks on the case mouths seem to end just a bit above the begining of the shoulder On many of them try as I might I can not get the die to come down far enough to make it all the way to the shoulder, would that be the result of an OS die or an over sized shell holder?

If the neck portion of the die isn't reaching the shoulder/neck junction of a case. You are not bumping the shoulder. So quite possible the die was cut a bit too deep. Doesn't take much.

In the few times I've had the failure to size FL because of tolerance conflict. I go the other way and will state my reason for it.

With a FL die that doesn't quite FL size. I chuck it up in the lathe and remove matl from the die mouth. Then I know it is square and concentric with the die bore. If you modify the shell holder, then it may not work with other calibers because of the same tolerance stacking conflict with those dies.

But by shortening the die body. That gives you leeway for further adjustment. And after all your cases are FL sized. Then fireformed in your chamber. You will likely advance your reloading technique to simply Neck Sizing for better accuracy. You simply back the die off until it sizes just the neck. Like it is doing now.

JM2c

[Redemption]

Slowly took off material until I got brass chambering 10/10 and then just now the shell holder blew out.... So I am shut down until I can get a new one.

This shell holder was specific to that die set so I am going to have to get a new one and then pull material off the die I guess..... FFS

feeling very very tempted to just buy a new die set....

If the neck portion of the die isn't reaching the shoulder/neck junction of a case. You are not bumping the shoulder. So quite possible the die was cut a bit too deep. Doesn't take much.

In the few times I've had the failure to size FL because of tolerance conflict. I go the other way and will state my reason for it.

With a FL die that doesn't quite FL size. I chuck it up in the lathe and remove matl from the die mouth. Then I know it is square and concentric with the die bore. If you modify the shell holder, then it may not work with other calibers because of the same tolerance stacking conflict with those dies.

But by shortening the die body. That gives you leeway for further adjustment. And after all your cases are FL sized. Then fireformed in your chamber. You will likely advance your reloading technique to simply Neck Sizing for better accuracy. You simply back the die off until it sizes just the neck. Like it is doing now.

JM2c

[corerftech]

I'll add .015 cents.

Sami publishes dimensions of a properly sized cartridge, avail online, lees second. Edition, etc.

Buy a dial caliper at harbor freight if your cheap and haven't bought one yet.
Without one you might as well be reloading with a stick and a rock.
You can measure all the lengths appropriately thereafter on your fl sized cases, not the loaded buggered ones.
Size a case and chamber it.if it won't go, then you have a problem.
Using saami dimensions you can verify the shoulder/body junction to datum and neck/shoulder to datum. If it's long, see below.
Either the die is set wrong, likely, or the die is junk, unlikely.
Lee dies should be screwed down 1/4 to 3/4 turn past a full stroke touching the sell holder. Full stroke, die body touches she'll holder and then another 1/4 to 3/4 turn deeper.
This is all full length dies. All means all.
If the empty case still won't chamber, buy a 50 year old set of Lyman, betters, pacific, Hornady, Hollywood.... From someone's junk pile.
Send Mr. Richard lee his junk back and get a refund.

Don't ever put a live round In a sizing die, it's not a lee factory crimp. This is not a 9mm.

Don't invest in fixes to mistakes. Please read any rcbs, Lyman reloading manual published before 1990 , read three times over the rifle instructions.
Follow them step by step, you will soon be a bench rest master.
Don't ask how to load rifle on a forum. Read the book. Too many doofuses on forums who load with stick and rock.
Old guys read the book. I'm old. I'm a guy. I fit the description.

I would not try to force anything into anything. If the cases are bad, spend the dough on a kinetic puller post haste.

It sounds like you may have embarked on this expedition short on needed basic tools. I suggest stopping until you can mantle and dismantle, measure and test.
Else you will waste much in time and money, unnecessarily.

An fl die is designed at cam over to set the shoulder back to saami minimum. Once you get good,,,,,,,,,, then you can play with setting the die for minimum shoulder setback. If your using a lee press, an aluminum one, you absolutely need to go 3/4 turn deeper to eliminate the flex and stretch in the press to get the full sizing.

Sent from iPhone please forgive typos.

Hand loading since 13, correctly....., I'm almost 50. For the record. Can't see the target anymore but I can load ammo and my pants, with a great deal of accuracy. Both come with age and experience.

Depends anyone?

[Redemption]

Yeah half the things mentioned I have already done / have / now know. Not going to list them all again for a second time.

Its not me, its not the adjustment or the cam over, or the brass, its the die set. The die is cut to0 deep and the shell holder was tall. Going to need a new one and to correct the die.

As previously stated, Certified machinist.

I'll add .015 cents.

Sami publishes dimensions of a properly sized cartridge, avail online, lees second. Edition, etc.

Buy a dial caliper at harbor freight if your cheap and haven't bought one yet.
Without one you might as well be reloading with a stick and a rock.
You can measure all the lengths appropriately thereafter on your fl sized cases, not the loaded buggered ones.
Size a case and chamber it.if it won't go, then you have a problem.
Using saami dimensions you can verify the shoulder/body junction to datum and neck/shoulder to datum. If it's long, see below.
Either the die is set wrong, likely, or the die is junk, unlikely.
Lee dies should be screwed down 1/4 to 3/4 turn past a full stroke touching the sell holder. Full stroke, die body touches she'll holder and then another 1/4 to 3/4 turn deeper.
This is all full length dies. All means all.
If the empty case still won't chamber, buy a 50 year old set of Lyman, betters, pacific, Hornady, Hollywood.... From someone's junk pile.
Send me Richard lee his junk back and get a refund.

Don't ever put a live round I a sizing die, it's not a lee factory crimp. This is not a 9mm.

Don't invest in fixes to mistakes. Please read any rcbs, Lyman reloading manual published before 1990 , read three times over the rifle instructions.
Follow them step by step, you will soon be a bench rest master.
Don't ask how to load rifle on a forum. Read the book. Too many doofuses on forums who load with stick and rock.
Old guys read the book. I'm old. I'm a guy. I fit the description.

I would not try to force anything into anything. If the cases are bad, spend the dough on a kinetic puller post haste.

It sounds like you may have embarked on this expedition short on needed basic tools. I suggest stopping until you can mantle and dismantle, measure and test.
Else you will waste much in time and money, unnecessarily.

An fl die is designed at cam over to set the shoulder back to saami minimum. Once you get good,,,,,,,,,, then you can play with setting the die for minimum shoulder setback. If your using a lee press, an aluminum one, you absolutely need to go 3/4 turn deeper to eliminate the flex and stretch in the press to get the full sizing.

[LynnJr]

Redemption
I know your a .machinist but I wouldn't touch the die. As a machinist you can remove the burr that will scratch your brass were it least needs scratching but when you shorten your die it is now only good for that one chamber.
If you sand the shellholder and I have lost 4-6 of them to sanding you can adjust your die for each chamber.
SAAMI specs of a belted magnum have 0.025 of variation. If you have a chamber on the short side of this tolerance and remove metal from the die and then buy a rifle on the high end of tolerance you won't be able to add metal back. This means when you properly bump the shoulder the area in front of the web doesn't get sized and it will be difficult to chamber.
I do agree there are a lot of doofusses out there and you set your die for every individual chamber not one size fits all.
As a machinist tolerance stacking is a daily part of your life.

[J-cat]

How much did you take off the shell holder before the cases chambered?

[M1NM]

Set the sizing die down against the ram so there is just a little feel if the handle going over center when it bottoms out. Make sure you move the handle through its full stroke each time. This is the only way you can assure you are truly full length resizing. Don't shoot as much as I used to so I'm only using a single stage press and do 100 at a time. You'll need to resize with the expander plug in place. When the neck gets resized the id is smaller than needed and not all the same due to brass thickness as it's pulled out the expander plug opens it up to provide the right neck tension on the bullet.

I've been loading since 1968. Everthing straight wall pistol, tapered pistol, bottle neck rifle and belted magnum on single stage and progressive. 90% of my dies are RCBS. I've never had to grind/sand/turn/cut/modify any die or shellholder. The key is to adjust it correctly. Over the years any round that has been screwed up (probably less than 100 in 48 years) can be traced to something I did not a failure of the tool. Too many experts won't face the fact that they are doing something wrong and blame it on the manufacturer. I also have a machine shop background having co-owned a prototype company that specialized in one off complex parts from circuit board jigs to artificial heart models - no CNC just reading prints and turning handles. If it doesn't work when properly set right out of the box send it back it's defective.

[Redemption]

For what I paid for this die set I dont know that it matters. To be honest if I bump the die down I will be dialing it in for every single bolt action with a tight chamer, every other chamber the brass will fire form to on the first firing

Redemption
I know your a .machinist but I wouldn't touch the die. As a machinist you can remove the burr that will scratch your brass were it least needs scratching but when you shorten your die it is now only good for that one chamber.
If you sand the shellholder and I have lost 4-6 of them to sanding you can adjust your die for each chamber.
SAAMI specs of a belted magnum have 0.025 of variation. If you have a chamber on the short side of this tolerance and remove metal from the die and then buy a rifle on the high end of tolerance you won't be able to add metal back. This means when you properly bump the shoulder the area in front of the web doesn't get sized and it will be difficult to chamber.
I do agree there are a lot of doofusses out there and you set your die for every individual chamber not one size fits all.
As a machinist tolerance stacking is a daily part of your life.

Diagnosing the brass I need somewhere in the region on 0.016 more travel + or - a few to get the neck sizing to reach the edge of the shoulder. I took off enough to get that travel. Looked like there was plenty of meat on the holder...at least until it popped.

How much did you take off the shell holder before the cases chambered?

Yes sir, I am aware of the function of the expander plug, as previously stated I purchased this die set used, Where on earth would I send it back to?

Here is a sentiment I have an issue with that I have seen expressed several times. I am more than happy to admit my mistakes, there is only so many ways to 'set the die' this isnt rocket science and Ive reset this die many many times in an effort to replicate a proper neck size. Because I bought this die used who knows what was done to it. It may have been cut deep, a previous owner may have reamed back the shoulder bump for a looser chambered rifle. There are simply too many possible variables to claim that it cant be the die.

Set the sizing die down against the ram so there is just a little feel if the handle going over center when it bottoms out. Make sure you move the handle through its full stroke each time. This is the only way you can assure you are truly full length resizing. Don't shoot as much as I used to so I'm only using a single stage press and do 100 at a time. You'll need to resize with the expander plug in place. When the neck gets resized the id is smaller than needed and not all the same due to brass thickness as it's pulled out the expander plug opens it up to provide the right neck tension on the bullet.

I've been loading since 1968. Everthing straight wall pistol, tapered pistol, bottle neck rifle and belted magnum on single stage and progressive. 90% of my dies are RCBS. I've never had to grind/sand/turn/cut/modify any die or shellholder. The key is to adjust it correctly. Over the years any round that has been screwed up (probably less than 100 in 48 years) can be traced to something I did not a failure of the tool. Too many experts won't face the fact that they are doing something wrong and blame it on the manufacturer. I also have a machine shop background having co-owned a prototype company that specialized in one off complex parts from circuit board jigs to artificial heart models - no CNC just reading prints and turning handles. If it doesn't work when properly set right out of the box send it back it's defective.

Here are the options as I see them:

- Replace the brass, doesnt really help me with the die issue...
- have a smith pull some material out of my rifle....no
- alter the die & or new shell holder thats in the mail
- buy new dies and hope that works....

[pacrat]

Redemption
I know your a .machinist but I wouldn't touch the die. As a machinist you can remove the burr that will scratch your brass were it least needs scratching but when you shorten your die it is now only good for that one chamber.
If you sand the shellholder and I have lost 4-6 of them to sanding you can adjust your die for each chamber.
SAAMI specs of a belted magnum have 0.025 of variation. If you have a chamber on the short side of this tolerance and remove metal from the die and then buy a rifle on the high end of tolerance you won't be able to add metal back. This means when you properly bump the shoulder the area in front of the web doesn't get sized and it will be difficult to chamber.
I do agree there are a lot of doofusses out there and you set your die for every individual chamber not one size fits all.
As a machinist tolerance stacking is a daily part of your life.

OP is not discussing difficulty with a belted case. Different [orange], compared to a 30-06 "straight tapered" case designed [apple]. It is all about geometry.

This means when you properly bump the shoulder the area in front of the web doesn't get sized and it will be difficult to chamber.

In the instance of a 30-06 or any "straight tapered" case the opposite would be true. He has already ascertained that his die is [too deep]. Same as having a rifle chamber that is too deep out of spec on headspace of a "straight tapered" chamber. That means it is also overly large in diameter at the web. There is no "belt" to stop downward movement. So because of the taper. The deeper the case goes into the die, the smaller in diameter the die makes the case except the neck.

How do you fix a rifle thats chamber is cut too deep creating excessive headspace?
You remove matl at the breech end of the chamber to bring it back to spec.

How do you fix a die that is too deep and has excessive headspace?
You remove matl from the "breech" of the die to bring it back to spec.

Redemption, I've never has reason the make comparative measurements of the plethora of shell holders I have. After reading of your problem, and your holder measured at .1265".

I have 2 of the boxed sets of Lee holders, a box set of Lyman holders, and a crap load of various RCBS holders. I dug out the depth mic and started measuring. From a low of .125" to a high of .127" over the spread. My depth mic doesn't measure in .0001" increments. But all are within a .002" tolerance. And yours falls within that spread. .002" is actually a pretty tight tolerance on over 30 parts with an 1/8" recess.

Yes sir, I am aware of the function of the expander plug, as previously stated I purchased this die set used, Where on earth would I send it back to?

Good question. Quite possibly you got it from some one who had the same difficulty, but wasn't a machinist. And didn't know how to fix the problem.



JM2c

[J-cat]

If you have to take .015" off a standard shell holder for the case to chamber then you have other problems.

Check the headspace. Check the fired brass. What was it fired in? How does factory ammo chamber?

[pacrat]

Redemption, somehow I brainfart skipped over this response from you before I made the last post.

To be honest if I bump the die down I will be dialing it in for every single bolt action with a tight chamer, every other chamber the brass will fire form to on the first firing.

Solid logical geometric thinking right there. Since you know the die is too deep. Removing matl from its base, increases its adjustability and brings it back into spec.

Again, JM2c

[Redemption]

Some of this was covered, factory chambers fine, dont know what it was fired in. I know the PO got it for his garand and the dent patterns on the case mouths before I neck sized them fall in line with that. Its not the rifle, its not the shell holder, those are all within spec. its not the adjustment trust me when I say I tried every possible avenue before I yanked material off that holder. (wont make that mistake on the next shell holder.

its the die. The Die is 0.015 deep cut. I dont know how that could happen from factory so I can only assume that either someone reamed out material for a looser chamber or quality control was asleep at the wheel the day my die rolled through there.

If you have to take .015" off a standard shell holder for the case to chamber then you have other problems.

Check the headspace. Check the fired brass. What was it fired in? How does factory ammo chamber?

I dont know why people are so resistant to the possibility of it being the die. I admit it wasnt my first thought either. I think I have exhausted every other possibility... unless you can think of something Ive missed?

if I could talk you into getting me a depth measurement from the bottom of the die to the start of the shoulder then I can verify my suspicion.

Redemption, somehow I brainfart skipped over this response from you before I made the last post.



Solid logical geometric thinking right there. Since you know the die is too deep. Removing matl from its base, increases its adjustability and brings it back into spec.

Again, JM2c

Before I hear it suggested again its not the brass either. Ive seen a lot of fancy claims about spring memory in metals in other threads, it is a work of partial fiction. When metal is annealed its spring memory is reset or relaxed depending on how you are doing it and why, when its quenched, formed or pressed its spring memory is set. When a blacksmith forges a leaf spring (spring steel) into a knife, it doesnt magically spring back into a cars leaf spring. As such when you form brass in a die it does not 'spring back' as I have seen claimed, that is a tolerance measurement between what a die is machined to and the measurement it gives the brass, there are specific equations for this which are dependent on metal types in press forming all kinds of stuff like cars, bullets etc, also regrettably well over my pay grade and understanding.

[PatC415]

go buy a bullet puller. safest

^^^I agree. Then get a full length sizing die and re-form ALL the other 775.

[pacrat]

if I could talk you into getting me a depth measurement from the bottom of the die to the start of the shoulder then I can verify my suspicion.

1.948" from base to point of shoulder.

http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

But that is a tough one to measure without appropriate gages. Because it is listed as a "reference dim" from base to center of a .050" radius on the shoulder.