CA DROS Delay

[pacrat]

Update, PPT for M1A on May 20 was delayed but came thru on June 16. Still waiting on new Ruger Wrangler purchase which was done on May 8. Passed the 40 day period already but the dealer said they have to wait for a type of release letter, I forget what was called and could will take another 2-3 weeks. And yes, I got that similar CA DOJ discrepancy letter too for my new purchase and PPT in May.

^^^ CARE TO CLARIFY A BIT ^^^

Because as stated. Your FFL is either an extreme DumbAzz. Or he is FOS and lying to you.

[Helmut]

Picked up 2 pistols from FFL without delay.

Heard on Reddit that someone was told by a live DOJ agent that there’s new procedures for background checks. Take it as you will.

[ar15barrels]

Still waiting on new Ruger Wrangler purchase which was done on May 8.
Passed the 40 day period already but the dealer said they have to wait for a type of release letter, I forget what was called and could will take another 2-3 weeks.

There is no "release letter".
At 30 days, if the FFL has not heard back with a specific DENIAL, they can release.
Passing 30 days without a DENIAL should change the status to undetermined.
When the status goes undetermined, the FFL gets to determine if they want to release or not.
Some FFL's do not release on undetermined and that sounds like what you have because he is feeding you some BS about waiting for an approval letter that will never come because they don't send an approval letter for an undermined DROS because after 30 days, it's the FFL's decision to make, not the DOJ's decision.

[taperxz]

There is no "release letter".
At 30 days, if the FFL has not heard back with a specific DENIAL, they can release.
Passing 30 days without a DENIAL should change the status to undetermined.
When the status goes undetermined, the FFL gets to determine if they want to release or not.
Some FFL's do not release on undetermined and that sounds like what you have because he is feeding you some BS about waiting for an approval letter that will never come because they don't send an approval letter for an undermined DROS because after 30 days, it's the FFL's decision to make, not the DOJ's decision.

This is wrong. DOJ does send a letter of undetermined that includes a NICS number in order to release the gun to the undetermined dros. That NICS number is in fact ANOTHER background check. The problem is that DOJ sends those letters out so late that it does no good and past 30 days.

The dealer can issue upon undetermined if they want but also must call into DOJ to get that NICS number instead of waiting for a letter that doesn't show up for 3-4 weeks.

To back track, The CA DROS number is only good for 30 days. That DROS goes undetermined and in order to release that gun, needs another background check and they use NICS. If you get the number via phone right away, you can deliver the gun but it absolutely must have a NICS number to put it on the 4473 or it was an illegal transfer federally.

[ar15barrels]

This is wrong. DOJ does send a letter of undetermined that includes a NICS number in order to release the gun to the undetermined dros. That NICS number is in fact ANOTHER background check. The problem is that DOJ sends those letters out so late that it does no good and past 30 days.

The dealer can issue upon undetermined if they want but also must call into DOJ to get that NICS number instead of waiting for a letter that doesn't show up for 3-4 weeks.

To back track, The CA DROS number is only good for 30 days. That DROS goes undetermined and in order to release that gun, needs another background check and they use NICS. If you get the number via phone right away, you can deliver the gun but it absolutely must have a NICS number to put it on the 4473 or it was an illegal transfer federally.

So like I said, it's not specifically a letter to release.
It's an undetermined DROS letter.
I didn't know they you needed the NICS number from the letter to release though so thanks for that.
That process is probably why some FFL's don't release on undetermined.
Those FFL's are too lazy to call in to get the NICS number.

[BONECUTTER]

Those FFL's are too lazy to call in to get the NICS number.

I used to just make customers wait until I received that letter. It was typical mailed from Sacramento on day 31 and I'd have it by day 33-34 max.

Then they started coming on day 40-45. When I started getting some on day 50 I just switched to calling. I call early from my cell before my work is even open so I don't have to be on hold for more than a few minutes. If I call after 10 I can expect to wait 40-120 minutes on hold.

Last month I received undetermined letters from January. Yeah CADOJ really lags on the mail these days and I get why dealers may not want to spend an hour on hold for a undetermined.

[taperxz]

So like I said, it's not specifically a letter to release.
It's an undetermined DROS letter.
I didn't know they you needed the NICS number from the letter to release though so thanks for that.
That process is probably why some FFL's don't release on undetermined.
Those FFL's are too lazy to call in to get the NICS number.

So, It actually is a release. They just don't us that verbiage. The NICS number that comes with the letter is the approval to release the gun. When CA law says the dealer may deliver, it CAN'T DELIVER without the APPROVED background check from NICS.

I deliver on undetermined not because i im using my descretion but because i have an APPROVAL from the Federal Government to do so. No dealer gets to decide or not whats right or wrong when it comes to background checks.

The state couldn't figure things out to their satisfaction and after 30 days have simply left it up to the Feds and that background check. THATS RIGHT! There were TWO background checks after purchase and prior to release. One undetermined and the second was an actual APPROVAL.

If the state doesn't give me a NICS number back, that is a NICS denial.

[The Gleam]

So, It actually is a release. They just don't us that verbiage. The NICS number that comes with the letter is the approval to release the gun. When CA law says the dealer may deliver, it CAN'T DELIVER without the APPROVED background check from NICS.

I deliver on undetermined not because i im using my descretion but because i have an APPROVAL from the Federal Government to do so. No dealer gets to decide or not whats right or wrong when it comes to background checks.

The state couldn't figure things out to their satisfaction and after 30 days have simply left it up to the Feds and that background check. THATS RIGHT! There were TWO background checks after purchase and prior to release. One undetermined and the second was an actual APPROVAL.

If the state doesn't give me a NICS number back, that is a NICS denial.

Very good info and insight.

This needs to be shared widely with other dealers and gun buyers, as well as it could serve the CRPA as significant prof to hold the DOJ accountable and force them to answer to the growing frequency of these nonsensical delays and 'undetermined' tools for infringing on gun buyers' civil rights.

That's IF the CRPA is inclined to do anything about it, and quits conflating 'delayed/undetermined' with a denial - regardless of the fact a right delayed, or 'undetermined' is a right denied.

(Imagine the storm that would arise in the mefia or from some DA or Bonta's offices, if you told someone they couldn't use a restroom or participate in a social gathering or sport because their gender was 'undetermined'.)

If the NICS goes through, it's evidence, or at least an indicator, of Bonta's DOJ knowingly having such disdain for gun owners and private gun ownership, that their dismissive attitude is causing a conflict with doing their job for which DROS fees and taxes pay them to do (and in a large surplus over the necessary funds to do that).

Their actions lend to underground gun control by reducing the number of purchases by people who are not prohibited, and raises a question of ethics around the DOJ's lack of care about the issue.

----

[BONECUTTER]

Very good info and insight.

This needs to be shared widely with other dealers and gun buyers, as well as it could serve the CRPA as significant prof to hold the DOJ accountable and force them to answer to the growing frequency of these nonsensical delays and 'undetermined' tools for infringing on gun buyers' civil rights.

That's IF the CRPA is inclined to do anything about it, and quits conflating 'delayed/undetermined' with a denial - regardless of the fact a right delayed, or 'undetermined' is a right denied.

(Imagine the storm that would arise in the mefia or from some DA or Bonta's offices, if you told someone they couldn't use a restroom or participate in a social gathering or sport because their gender was 'undetermined'.)

If the NICS goes through, it's evidence, or at least an indicator, of Bonta's DOJ knowingly having such disdain for gun owners and private gun ownership, that their dismissive attitude is causing a conflict with doing their job for which DROS fees and taxes pay them to do (and in a large surplus over the necessary funds to do that).

Their actions lend to underground gun control by reducing the number of purchases by people who are not prohibited, and raises a question of ethics around the DOJ's lack of care about the issue.

----

This has already been a court case.....hence the 30 day limit.
I used to have people on Delay for over a year before we won.

Now a NICS approval does not mean you can legally buy a gun in CA. If you were delayed it's on the state level. Most of the time they can't get it cleared before the 30 days. NICS is just one of the checks CA does.

[The Gleam]

This has already been a court case.....hence the 30 day limit.
I used to have people on Delay for over a year before we won.

Now a NICS approval does not mean you can legally buy a gun in CA. If you were delayed it's on the state level. Most of the time they can't get it cleared before the 30 days. NICS is just one of the checks CA does.

I know; I'm not able to catalog the entire history and background check method relationship all in one post, but was concentrating on what HAS cleared as a corroborator that these "delayed/undetermined" are ridiculous and unacceptable, and that if NICS clears, that is more than sufficient.

My point was, that with NICS cleared and in hand, while the CA State's background check lagging for no other reason other than incompetence or even intentional disregard or biased dismissal, any active DROS should be released on undetermined if the NICS is cleared, because at least the version used by the majority of all states that run background checks is good to go.

It's a compelling force to show that these delays/undetermined status bear no dependence on any actual indicators the State of CA background check methods may have found, and more than likely with nothing to be found - as we have seen in hundreds of incidents lately (and particularly where other DROS applications for recent, simultaneous, or those after the DROS application deemed marked as delayed/undetermined went through.)

I'm not seeing any credibility to these "delayed/undetermined" designations and none of come to light that were, and where the CA DOJ is not communicating any of their data/variables as to why they have left a DROS applicant in "delayed/undetermined" limbo, in conjunction with the law dictating the dealer is to release on undetermined - any such dealer would be in the right to release if the NICS is good to go.

This needs to be the norm, not the exception, whenever these nonsensical "delayed/undetermined" arise.

---

[ShaunCostcoPro]

Many many transactions 15 years+, have current CCW, and nothing that would make me a prohibited person. Was told today by riflegear my recent dros of lowers (mulit-cal) is on delay. First time ever that's happened. I find it odd that a poster here took from a reddit post that an ATF agent said there is new background check process and anecdotally others have posted here other transactions were approved during the same time others were on delay. You would think that wouldn't happen if there was a new background check system that none of us have heard about.
There is a lawsuit pending from "pandemic" DROS delay times: Mauro Campos, et al. v. Xavier Becerra, Attorney General of California ("Campos" case) https://www.firearmspolicy.org/campos

There are links in that page to read some of the docket which provides some further info I havent read it all yet, but so far what is perhaps most interesting and shocking is from the State's opposition signed 6-17-22:
"For most purchasers the added delay in clearing a background check was no more than three to five days.
By July 2020, despite continued unprecedented levels of firearms sales, the California Bureau of Firearms (the Bureau) had completely resolved the backlog, which has not recurred. "

Disgusting. I'm going to email FPC this thread to see if it can help their response and show they are lying.

Keep contributing to FPC/CRPA etc and have them field our issues in the legal forum. For all of you angry about this as I am, if you are not contributing to these organizations, we need them more than ever. Keep in mind, just barely and sorely considering our 2a is a disfavored right, the courts when we can get fair decisions are keeping us barely in the game and these groups and their lawyers are really the only ones taking action. At the same time we should be responsible to support them, even if they are not perfect.

[pacrat]

Many many transactions 15 years+, have current CCW, and nothing that would make me a prohibited person. Was told today by riflegear my recent dros of lowers (mulit-cal) is on delay. First time ever that's happened. I find it odd that a poster here took from a reddit post that an ATF agent said there is new background check process and anecdotally others have posted here other transactions were approved during the same time others were on delay. You would think that wouldn't happen if there was a new background check system that none of us have heard about.
There is a lawsuit pending from "pandemic" DROS delay times: Mauro Campos, et al. v. Xavier Becerra, Attorney General of California ("Campos" case) https://www.firearmspolicy.org/campos

There are links in that page to read some of the docket which provides some further info I havent read it all yet, but so far what is perhaps most interesting and shocking is from the State's opposition signed 6-17-22:
"For most purchasers the added delay in clearing a background check was no more than three to five days.
By July 2020, despite continued unprecedented levels of firearms sales, the California Bureau of Firearms (the Bureau) had completely resolved the backlog, which has not recurred. "

Disgusting. I'm going to email FPC this thread to see if it can help their response and show they are lying.

Keep contributing to FPC/CRPA etc and have them field our issues in the legal forum. For all of you angry about this as I am, if you are not contributing to these organizations, we need them more than ever. Keep in mind, just barely and sorely considering our 2a is a disfavored right, the courts when we can get fair decisions are keeping us barely in the game and these groups and their lawyers are really the only ones taking action. At the same time we should be responsible to support them, even if they are not perfect.

THANK YOU FOR THIS INFORMATIVE POST.

Please repost here; https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...play.php?f=330

This deserves mentioning in thread in the Ca Litigation forum. Not just a mention in GENERAL Discussion.

I posted it into the existing Campos case thread.

[Maynard90807]

After 30 days I got an undetermined , delay was changed, after a call to DOJ

Can you clarify that your "undetermined" was changed? Does that mean your were able to get your firearm? And who did you call at DOJ? Do you have a number you can give me? I tried researching a number for DOJ and I couldn't find anyone to reach. I too recently was called by my FFL and said there's a delay can take up to 30 days and to receive a letter in the mail which I have not gotten yet I was supposed to pick up my gross last Tuesday when I received the information that I was delayed as well. I have been legally purchasing firearms and ammunition since 1990s. I did a few PPTs this past month buying and selling. But I believe that I have not reached my maximum limits and I am just absolutely dumbfounded and frustrated with this delay with no reason to give me. Please help!

[Maynard90807]

Even active duty Law Enforcement Officers get DELAYED and UNDETERMINED. Having a CCW counts for nothing, as far as the incompetent DOJ employees are concerned.

As to the bolded ..................... lesson learned. NEVER, EVER, DO BUSINESS WITH AN FFL THAT PULLS THAT CRAP.

ASK FIRST, if answer is, "No". WALK OUT, after telling them how F'd they are.

Read Ca PC-28220 .......... specifically sections (A) and (4). Dealing with approved and undetermined. Both are DOJ APPROVALS. The only difference is the 10 days or 30 days timeline.

approved at end of 10-24 hour periods hold.


approval at end of 30 day delayed status.


^^^ NOTE EXACT SAME WORDING IN BOTH .......... AUTHORIZING IMMEDIATE TRANSFER TO PURCHASER ^^^

THANK YOU very much for this info

[CJOHNSON88]

Update to my first Dros delay went in to pick still showed delayed called back 2 hours later and it showed it could be delivered but it was undetermined the second Dros 30 days will be up July 1st at a shop that does not release on undetermined and they want a 25% restocking fee on 1200$ what should I do?