Preventable Tragedy

[dwalker]

I actually do not agree with drunk driving laws, but do be so kind to point to an actual statistic where drunk driving deaths have been prevented or lessened by such a law.

There is no amount of legislation that will prevent bad parenting. None. All it does is harass honest citizens.

You cannot and should not try to legislate safety. It doesnt work. It never has and it never will. All it does is burden the rest of society. Stupid people are going to do stupid things and they are very likely to die for it. While I feel sad at these events I simply understand there is no amount of .gov intervention that will prevent tragedies.

Gun free zones prevent shootings.
DUI laws prevent high school kids from driving into fences.
10 day waiting periods prevent suicides and spousal murder.
Helmet laws prevent death in motorcycling accidents.
Safe zones prevent ND's in gun stores and ranges.
OSHA prevents fires, chemical spills, and on the job injuries
the EPA prevents cheical spills and environmental tragedies.

If you believe any of the above your an idiot.

Humans with personal responsibility, education, and training prevents tragedies. Laws do not and cannot and never will.

[ChuckDizzle]

Now your kids of course may be heathen brats, I do not know. I cannot answer to any shortcomings you might have parenting. I can only speak for myself, and that is my kid is taught right from wrong.

Now your going to argue that yeah, but wait til he is XX years old ad has his no good friends over.. Well brother, he wont be having any friends over inside the house when Mom and Dad are not home, nor will he go to other folks houses when thier parents arent home. Even when Mom and Dad are home, he already knows the rule is that all kids have to stay in the living room/kitchen unless an adult is with them. Thats not going to change.

Again, its just parenting..

ETA: In the theme of "full disclosure" my degree is in Psychology and I worked with troubled (delinquent) kids for a while in a Wilderness school, so yeap, I have some experience with adolescents, beyond of course being one once.

I should also add that no, I do not believe everyone should leave thier guns around willy nilly for thier kids to get at. Some people are idiots, and some people suck at parenting to the point their kids are monsters that will likely come to a bad end. But I cannot help thier bad parenting. I cannot help it that you suck at it and your kids cannot be trusted to be left home alone for even a half hour. I cannot help that our society has rotted to the point that parents have not the first idea how to raise thier kids. No matter how many feel good laws you pass, or how many times you tell yourself such and such could have been prevented, you are just drinking the kool-aid and not addressing the actual issue.

Wait, I tought you trusted you kid thanks to your superior parenting skills? But you would confine your kids and their guests to immediate supervision and two rooms in the house? Which is it? And if you really had a degree in psychology you would readily admit that there are plenty of good parents that end up with bad kids too. I'm not going to get into a nature/nurture argument, but it isn't as simple as "raise them right."

Again you have created the conditions in which our safe storage law will never affect you. You don't seem to understand the necessary elements of a prosecution under this law.

[dwalker]

Again you have created the conditions in which our safe storage law will never affect you. You don't seem to understand the necessary elements of a prosecution under this law.

I do understand them, I just do not believe there needs to be such a law. I believe there are too many laws as it is and one more that literally accomplishes NOTHING but to potentially harass an honest citizen is even worse.

[ChuckDizzle]

Helmet laws prevent death in motorcycling accidents.

If you believe any of the above your an idiot.

Humans with personal responsibility, education, and training prevents tragedies. Laws do not and cannot and never will.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448295/

Weird how an ineffective and useless law was done away with and coincidentally people were 21% more likely to die on a motorcycle.

[dwalker]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448295/

Weird how an ineffective and useless law was done away with and coincidentally people were 21% more likely to die on a motorcycle.

CO has no helmet law, and the percentage of motorcycle fatalities is not higher than anywhere else, even with all the crappy weather we get...

But hey man, I get it, your a Liberal at heart who honestly believes the .gov should regulate our lives and we are all safer for it.
Personally, I think we have far too many laws on the books and I believe we as a country were far better off when we did not.

[Win231]

What is the burden? Doing something you would have already done anyway? Remember there is zero burden imposed by the law if there is no crime or injury committed by the child. It simply holds those idiots accountable, and serves as a reminder of that at the point of sale. I locked up my guns when I lived in a state without storage laws, I do it now too. But I'm glad that if some punk shoots my son the person who allowed that punk access to a gun is held accountable.

Agreed. But whenever this subject comes up, some people have trouble focusing on the real issue - which is foolishly allowing children access to firearms. Instead, some gun owners jump on the "No one tells me how to store my gun" or "I don't need a law" bandwagon.

Well, intelligent people DON'T need a law to store guns responsibly, but in the general population, not everyone will be intelligent. For those individuals, I have no problem with a law. Children need to be protected from foolish parents.

[ChuckDizzle]

CO has no helmet law, and the percentage of motorcycle fatalities is not higher than anywhere else, even with all the crappy weather we get...

Colorado isn't Florida. I'm not sure how much science you learned with your psychology degree. But in order to make a valid comparison you need to isolate and account for variables. With all the crappy weather you get people ride less, therefore less people are killed on motorcycles. What is important is the fatality rate per mile across all riders.

It is pretty clear that when the helmet law disappears and people are dying at a 21% greater rate per mile than the previous year there is a causal element.

If Colorado instituted a helmet law you would likely see about a 21% reduction in motorcycle fatalities.

It's ok, you were wrong.

Also I've traveled a bit, many times to countries that don't have an EPA, their air quality is terrible and they are really dirty places.

[ChuckDizzle]

Some freedom loving Chinese people unencumbered by oppressive EPA regulations!

[dwalker]

Been to China. Its bad, but no worse than downtown SF or NYC.

[71MUSTY]

Wait, I tought you trusted you kid thanks to your superior parenting skills? But you would confine your kids and their guests to immediate supervision and two rooms in the house? Which is it? And if you really had a degree in psychology you would readily admit that there are plenty of good parents that end up with bad kids too. I'm not going to get into a nature/nurture argument, but it isn't as simple as "raise them right."

Again you have created the conditions in which our safe storage law will never affect you. You don't seem to understand the necessary elements of a prosecution under this law.

Dude those are superior parenting skills.

By your own statement the law only has effect after the fact. So how exactly is prosecuting dumb people who do dumb things gonna keep dumb people from being dumb?

[ChuckDizzle]

Been to China. Its bad, but no worse than downtown SF or NYC.

https://waqi.info/

lol, what is it like to live in your own reality?

[71MUSTY]

Agreed. But whenever this subject comes up, some people have trouble focusing on the real issue - which is foolishly allowing children access to firearms. Instead, some gun owners jump on the "No one tells me how to store my gun" or "I don't need a law" bandwagon.

Well, intelligent people DON'T need a law to store guns responsibly, but in the general population, not everyone will be intelligent. For those individuals, I have no problem with a law. Children need to be protected from foolish parents.

By definition the foolish parents don't follow the law, so the law protects nobody but burdens everyone.



And neither helmet laws nor seat belt laws were passed to save lives. They were both passed to save the government from paying the medical expenses if people injured.

[ChuckDizzle]

Dude those are superior parenting skills.

By your own statement the law only has effect after the fact. So how exactly is prosecuting dumb people who do dumb things gonna keep dumb people from being dumb?

You are asking for a measurable impact of the negative? Logically this is difficult to prove. If someone reads that handy sign at the gun store counter and decides to lock up their gun and the kid never gets access, there is no data point to be had. The kid may have never gotten access or committed a crime with it otherwise.

These types of shootings are rare enough that it is difficult to measure the impact of the effectiveness of a safe storage law on their occurrence. And in all likelihood a parent negligent enough to allow access of their child to loaded firearms, resulting in death or injury, is not likely to follow the safe storage law anyways.

However, some laws aren't only about prevention of crime, they are about justice for the victims. Again, we seem to be in agreement that if dwalker overestimates the maturity of his child or his parenting skills and his kid takes a gun to school, the park, or whatever and hurts one of our kids that dwalker should be held accountable in some way.

[ChuckDizzle]

By definition the foolish parents don't follow the law, so the law protects nobody but burdens everyone.



And neither helmet laws nor seat belt laws were passed to save lives. They were both passed to save the government from paying the medical expenses if people injured.

Good, our government sticks its hand into my bank account every two weeks and takes a peek at what's going on in there every year. I don't want you or I to be on the hook for someone's brain surgery or extended coma because they wanted to look or feel cool while riding a motorcycle.

I'm still confused as to what burden this law places on anyone? There isn't a gun storage inspection board coming by between the hours of 11 A.M. and 5 P.M. to check out your set up.

[dwalker]

I have been to China several times, and am scheduled to go again end of June but likely will not make it. So I kinda believe what I have SEEN with my own eyes in Shenzhen and Beijing rather than what the media wishes me to see.

You are asking for a measurable impact of the negative? Logically this is difficult to prove. If someone reads that handy sign at the gun store counter and decides to lock up their gun and the kid never gets access, there is no data point to be had. The kid may have never gotten access or committed a crime with it otherwise.

If a kid never gets access to a gun then he will never learn to respect it. Never learn what happens when it goes bang. You have just illustrated why that sign is a bad, bad, idea. Education is the key, not hiding things away. From the sound of it my 5 year old could give yu a lesson in gun safety and handling... but I digress.

These types of shootings are rare enough that it is difficult to measure the impact of the effectiveness of a safe storage law on their occurrence. And in all likelihood a parent negligent enough to allow access of their child to loaded firearms, resulting in death or injury, is not likely to follow the safe storage law anyways.

Right, they are rare because normal parents teach ther kids abut guns and at least try to be good parents. We cannot rely on legislation for 1% that has the ability to effect everyone.

However, some laws aren't only about prevention of crime, they are about justice for the victims. Again, we seem to be in agreement that if dwalker overestimates the maturity of his child or his parenting skills and his kid takes a gun to school, the park, or whatever and hurts one of our kids that dwalker should be held accountable in some way.

I think we have identified your issue, and that is you want someone to pay. If your kid who has NEVER been allowed to even look at a gun and they have always been locked in a safe decides to get froggy because Dads not home and had a lapse of judgement, left a gun out, and that kid gets that gun out and shows his friends and some kid gets shot and killed, you feel like you should go to jail for that. Thats what I am hearing? Right?

Wrong.

So lets put this another way. Your kid gets into your liquor cabinet and gets abunch of kids to drink with him and one dies of alcohol poisoning. You going to jail?

Or how about your 15yr old kid with a learners permit takes your keys and decides to drive around the block a few times and kills the crazy cat lady down the street. You going to jail?

Or your 15 year old kid gets hopped up on pills from your ed cabinet and booze from your liqour cabinet and takes your car to give a bunch of 14year old girls a ride to a mall and crashes into a minivan and kills a mother and three kids. You going to jail?

Seriously Chuck, you need to re-examine a lot of your views.

And I think 71 Musty was in agreement that no, in fact, my kid will NOT be allowed to have hid friend roaming around my house, and they will NOT be allowed in my house if a parent isnt home Thats how all this crap starts and is BAD PARENTING. It is not a trust issue, I trust my kid to do what is right, but I cannot speak for YOUR effed up kid who has never seen a gun outside of a safe, and who may have mental issues as yet unidentified. Its people who "trust" thier kids to have friends over who end up with pregnant 14 year olds and rape allegations and the smell of pot throughout the house.

Be a parent for the love of Christ and stop counting on anyone else to be one for you.