Preventable Tragedy

[MJB]

Nanny laws for the ones that lack COMMON SENCE........I don't need a law to help protect me from being stupid......

[dwalker]

Interesting topic...

So yesterday my wife had a party for some of her classmates to celebrate thier graduation from Berkeleys MBA program. All but one of the guests brought thier kids over.
Less than social person I am, I retreated to my gun-room, and welcomed the guys to come along if they wanted to while the womenfolk chatted about whatever womenfolk chat about when you have more than three in one place.
The kids were playing in the living room and kitchen downstairs.
At one point my 5 (6 in two weeks lol) year old could be heard telling the other kids that they could not go upstairs to Dads gun room because they did not know the four rules and unless an adult went with them they were not allowed up there.
Yeah, thats right, my boy knows and follows the rules even when adults are not paying attention to him. Not only does he follow the rules, he makes sure everyone else follows the rules. Weird, I know.

I re-iterate:
Do you take your kids to the range? I do. And not just once in a while. He has the opportunity to go to the range every time I go if he wants. Yesterday he said no thanks, because he wanted to go to Church with Mommy instead.
3 Weeks ago he was at a 3-gun match helping reset targets while Daddy shot the match. Yeap, a little guy out there resetting steel and clays on the stages. You would likely have had a conniption fit..
Do your kids handle firearms and know the rules and has proven to abide by them? Mine has and does. He KNOWS which are his BB guns (he just got another one that fits him better) and which is his REAL gun- a Daisy 22 bolt gun- and which are daddys guns and he NEVER touches any of them without and adult around AND asking first.

Its just parenting folks...

[ChuckDizzle]

Interesting topic...

So yesterday my wife had a party for some of her classmates to celebrate thier graduation from Berkeleys MBA program. All but one of the guests brought thier kids over.
Less than social person I am, I retreated to my gun-room, and welcomed the guys to come along if they wanted to while the womenfolk chatted about whatever womenfolk chat about when you have more than three in one place.
The kids were playing in the living room and kitchen downstairs.
At one point my 5 (6 in two weeks lol) year old could be heard telling the other kids that they could not go upstairs to Dads gun room because they did not know the four rules and unless an adult went with them they were not allowed up there.
Yeah, thats right, my boy knows and follows the rules even when adults are not paying attention to him. Not only does he follow the rules, he makes sure everyone else follows the rules. Weird, I know.

I re-iterate:
Do you take your kids to the range? I do. And not just once in a while. He has the opportunity to go to the range every time I go if he wants. Yesterday he said no thanks, because he wanted to go to Church with Mommy instead.
3 Weeks ago he was at a 3-gun match helping reset targets while Daddy shot the match. Yeap, a little guy out there resetting steel and clays on the stages. You would likely have had a conniption fit..
Do your kids handle firearms and know the rules and has proven to abide by them? Mine has and does. He KNOWS which are his BB guns (he just got another one that fits him better) and which is his REAL gun- a Daisy 22 bolt gun- and which are daddys guns and he NEVER touches any of them without and adult around AND asking first.

Its just parenting folks...

That's great and all, but I think you missed the part about unsupervised access.

[71MUSTY]

You are aware there are laws regarding locking gates for yards that have pools right?

This is no different.

I don't know where you get "x should be locked to prevent unsupervised access by kids" to "x is bad, ban x."

No this is totally different, let me explain how. I have a fence around my pool to keep neighbor kids out of my pool area.

I have locks on my doors to keep neighborhood kids out of my house and away from my guns.

I own cars. If a neighborhood kid breaks into my car and subsequently injures someone I am not going to jail. (even if I didn't lock my car.

I teach my kids to swim to keep them safe. Likewise I teach them proper handgun safety and proper behavior in general to keep them safe around guns, knives, saws etc.


If a neighbor kid breaks into my house and steals my gun and uses it to kill someone I could go to jail.

If the neighborhood kid climbs my fence and drowns another neighborhood kid I don't.

Same action different outcomes. Therefore the laws are not the same. More kids die in cars and pools then by firearms.

I do not have a constitutional right to a pool or a car, but only my constitutional right is held to a higher standard.

At some point we need to get back to teaching people personal responsibility instead of blaming their actions on other people and things and passing stupid laws harming innocent people for the acts of a stupid few.

BTW my handgun safety policies have resulted in not one death or injury. The state's handgun laws can not make the same claim.

[ChuckDizzle]

No this is totally different, let me explain how. I have a fence around my pool to keep neighbor kids out of my pool area.

I have locks on my doors to keep neighborhood kids out of my house and away from my guns.

I own cars. If a neighborhood kid breaks into my car and subsequently injures someone I am not going to jail. (even if I didn't lock my car.

I teach my kids to swim to keep them safe. Likewise I teach them proper handgun safety and proper behavior in general to keep them safe around guns, knives, saws etc.


If a neighbor kid breaks into my house and steals my gun and uses it to kill someone I could go to jail.

If the neighborhood kid climbs my fence and drowns another neighborhood kid I don't.

Same action different outcomes. Therefore the laws are not the same. More kids die in cars and pools then by firearms.

I do not have a constitutional right to a pool or a car, but only my constitutional right is held to a higher standard.

At some point we need to get back to teaching people personal responsibility instead of blaming their actions on other people and things and passing stupid laws harming innocent people for the acts of a stupid few.

BTW my handgun safety policies have resulted in not one death or injury. The state's handgun laws can not make the same claim.

I don't think you have read and understand the law completely. You can't be held criminally liable for a kid stealing your gun and using it. The law specifically states you had to reasonably forsee that a a child would gain access to it.

The criminal act interrupts the causal chain in criminal negligence.

[71MUSTY]

That's great and all, but I think you missed the part about unsupervised access.

Why the heck would you give your child unsupervised access to anything? You are their parent. Supervision of your children is your responsibility. You are quick to abdicate your responsibility in favor of laws burdening others.

I think you missed the part about personal responsibility. We teach children to have it. Obviously not all people do. I raised my children with personal responsibility and strict accountability. The neighbor down the street had your "Boys will be boys" attitude, insisting it was everyone else's responsibility to remove all temptation from their children.

All four of my children grew up to be law abiding productive members of society. The neighbors kids are all serving time.

Why not pass laws for bad parenting and bad kids instead of laws infringing good parents and good kids?

[71MUSTY]

I don't think you have read and understand the law completely. You can't be held criminally liable for a kid stealing your gun and using it. The law specifically states you had to reasonably forsee that a a child would gain access to it.

The criminal act interrupts the causal chain in criminal negligence.

So the law is pointless. My front door is locked. Any child entering my house without my supervision has committed a crime. There is no forseeable way that any child would legally enter my house unsupervised.

[ChuckDizzle]

So the law is pointless. My front door is locked. Any child entering my house without my supervision has committed a crime. There is no forseeable way that any child would legally enter my house unsupervised.

The law isn't pointless. It's for people like the idiot in OP's story. Especially when that idiot isn't the one whose kid is shot. It's for the morons who think their parenting can overcome fundamental limitations of biology and the understanding of consequences and risk assessment.

[dwalker]

That's great and all, but I think you missed the part about unsupervised access.

No, I addressed it quite clearly...

Interesting topic...

So yesterday my wife had a party for some of her classmates to celebrate thier graduation from Berkeleys MBA program. All but one of the guests brought thier kids over.
Less than social person I am, I retreated to my gun-room, and welcomed the guys to come along if they wanted to while the womenfolk chatted about whatever womenfolk chat about when you have more than three in one place.
The kids were playing in the living room and kitchen downstairs.
At one point my 5 (6 in two weeks lol) year old could be heard telling the other kids that they could not go upstairs to Dads gun room because they did not know the four rules and unless an adult went with them they were not allowed up there.
Yeah, thats right, my boy knows and follows the rules even when adults are not paying attention to him. Not only does he follow the rules, he makes sure everyone else follows the rules. Weird, I know.

I re-iterate:
Do you take your kids to the range? I do. And not just once in a while. He has the opportunity to go to the range every time I go if he wants. Yesterday he said no thanks, because he wanted to go to Church with Mommy instead.
3 Weeks ago he was at a 3-gun match helping reset targets while Daddy shot the match. Yeap, a little guy out there resetting steel and clays on the stages. You would likely have had a conniption fit..
Do your kids handle firearms and know the rules and has proven to abide by them? Mine has and does. He KNOWS which are his BB guns (he just got another one that fits him better) and which is his REAL gun- a Daisy 22 bolt gun- and which are daddys guns and he NEVER touches any of them without and adult around AND asking first.

Its just parenting folks...

[ChuckDizzle]

You honestly believe that a kid with access to a gun will simply never handle them unsupervised because you told them not to?

Let me guess, you don't have much experience with adolescents?

[ChuckDizzle]

Why the heck would you give your child unsupervised access to anything? You are their parent. Supervision of your children is your responsibility. You are quick to abdicate your responsibility in favor of laws burdening others.

I think you missed the part about personal responsibility. We teach children to have it. Obviously not all people do. I raised my children with personal responsibility and strict accountability. The neighbor down the street had your "Boys will be boys" attitude, insisting it was everyone else's responsibility to remove all temptation from their children.

All four of my children grew up to be law abiding productive members of society. The neighbors kids are all serving time.

Why not pass laws for bad parenting and bad kids instead of laws infringing good parents and good kids?

The law only affects parents who are stupid enough to negligently allow access of their arms to children. Your kids are fine, good job, congratulations. But what if your kid had been gunned down at a party, or at school by some punk who took a gun from his dad's sock drawer? Wouldn't you think there was some responsibility failed by that other parent and want them punished?

[dwalker]

You honestly believe that a kid with access to a gun will simply never handle them unsupervised because you told them not to?

Let me guess, you don't have much experience with adolescents?

Would your kid run out in front of a car? I mean, you taught them to look both ways right? How about drinking bleach? Do your kids make a habit of guzzling Downy when you arent home? Course not, because you taught them that it will hurt them and could kill them.

My parents in law were terrified at the idea of me having my guns around my son. They initially tried to prove thier point by literally encouraging him to go into the gun room and play with my guns. He refused. He still refuses.
They gave up on that approach.

When he wants to handle a gun, he knows all he has to do is ask me and if it s an appropriate time he knows he can handle any gun in the collection to his hearts content. There is no mystery there. By properly exposing and teaching him about firearms and other dangerous things, he is prepared to do the right thing.

Now your kids of course may be heathen brats, I do not know. I cannot answer to any shortcomings you might have parenting. I can only speak for myself, and that is my kid is taught right from wrong.

Now your going to argue that yeah, but wait til he is XX years old ad has his no good friends over.. Well brother, he wont be having any friends over inside the house when Mom and Dad are not home, nor will he go to other folks houses when thier parents arent home. Even when Mom and Dad are home, he already knows the rule is that all kids have to stay in the living room/kitchen unless an adult is with them. Thats not going to change.

Again, its just parenting..

ETA: In the theme of "full disclosure" my degree is in Psychology and I worked with troubled (delinquent) kids for a while in a Wilderness school, so yeap, I have some experience with adolescents, beyond of course being one once.

I should also add that no, I do not believe everyone should leave thier guns around willy nilly for thier kids to get at. Some people are idiots, and some people suck at parenting to the point their kids are monsters that will likely come to a bad end. But I cannot help thier bad parenting. I cannot help it that you suck at it and your kids cannot be trusted to be left home alone for even a half hour. I cannot help that our society has rotted to the point that parents have not the first idea how to raise thier kids. No matter how many feel good laws you pass, or how many times you tell yourself such and such could have been prevented, you are just drinking the kool-aid and not addressing the actual issue.

[71MUSTY]

The law only affects parents who are stupid enough to negligently allow access of their arms to children. Your kids are fine, good job, congratulations. But what if your kid had been gunned down at a party, or at school by some punk who took a gun from his dad's sock drawer? Wouldn't you think there was some responsibility failed by that other parent and want them punished?

If the other parent failed he failed as a parent. Your law does nothing to make better parents. Instead it burdens me. Make a law that makes better parents and I'll support it 100%. Instead we have laws that punish me because other people are bad.

Would I want to punish him? Maybe, but I wouldn't punish you for what he did.

Which is what this law does.

[ChuckDizzle]

You guys keep looking at our safe storage law through a straw. To quote George Carlin, "think about how stupid the average person is, then remember half the people in the world are dumber than that!"

You have to put yourself in the position of someone who has been negatively impacted by the stupidity of those people.

It's like saying we don't need drunk driving laws because I don't drive drunk and have never been hit by a drunk driver.

[ChuckDizzle]

If the other parent failed he failed as a parent. Your law does nothing to make better parents. Instead it burdens me. Make a law that makes better parents and I'll support it 100%. Instead we have laws that punish me because other people are bad.

Would I want to punish him? Maybe, but I wouldn't punish you for what he did.

Which is what this law does.

What is the burden? Doing something you would have already done anyway? Remember there is zero burden imposed by the law if there is no crime or injury committed by the child. It simply holds those idiots accountable, and serves as a reminder of that at the point of sale. I locked up my guns when I lived in a state without storage laws, I do it now too. But I'm glad that if some punk shoots my son the person who allowed that punk access to a gun is held accountable.