Preventable Tragedy

[71MUSTY]

Those are all nuanced issues worth discussion. But pretending the EPA doesn't have some positive impact on our environment, or that OSHA hasn't improved any workplace safety is simply absurd.

The problem with the "mind your own business" idea is that we live in a world where the consequences of negligence often cause harm to those who have done no wrong. Again, think of the biggest scumbag you know, now accept that there are worse people out there with kids who don't secure their arms or raise their kids to respect firearms. Is that scumbag really free from fault if his kid kills yours cuz freedom?

Obviously what we need are two sets of laws. One set for Chuck here and the stupid people he keeps bring up and another for American's who's rights are protected by the Constitution.

We get your point Chuck. We do not need the constitution. We need a huge government to wrap us all in bubble wrap and protect us from the dumb people.

[tanks]

I don't think there should be storage etc. laws per se after all it is a Constitutional right.

That being said with rights also come responsibility. So, there should be consequences for negligence and misuse.

So, a kid gets killed by a weapon left unsecured the owner should get charged with manslaughter, a kid gets hurt by an unsecured weapon the owner gets charged with assault with a deadly weapon. One's teenager gets a weapon and kills a classmate then the weapon owner gets charged with accessory to murder etc., etc..

Fair enough?

[SloChicken]

I don't think there should be storage etc. laws per se after all it is a Constitutional right.

That being said with rights also come responsibility. So, there should be consequences for negligence and misuse.

So, a kid gets killed by a weapon left unsecured the owner should get charged with manslaughter, a kid gets hurt by an unsecured weapon the owner gets charged with assault with a deadly weapon. One's teenager gets a weapon and kills a classmate then the weapon owner gets charged with accessory to murder etc., etc..

Fair enough?

How about this.

The kid doesn't steal that which is not his.
When he does, the theft, and any criminal sequelae that follow are the child and/or his family's responsibility.

Who is really at fault? The person that had their personal property stolen? Or the parents that don't teach their kid and he steals the weapon?

The gun owner, has reasonably secured his house to a standard that all others secure their homes - which, btw, his choice, once again, should be in how secure he wants it - some people don't even lock their house or car doors and that is their prerogative.

For example, a person leaves their keys to their car on their table in their house. A thief (juvenile or adult) steals the keys, and takes the car and kills someone crashing it.
Who is at fault in this circumstance?

The same should go for a firearm stolen from your house.

Why should the standard be any different for a firearm?
And if the standard should be different, why don't we have the same regulation for butcher knives? meat cleavers? pitchforks? Very hard apples, full bathtubs? and so on ...


Riddle me that one?

[snowdog650]

I learn something new each day on these forums. China is insane!!!!

North Korea looks super clean on that map. What a great place it must be.

[dwalker]

I don't think there should be storage etc. laws per se after all it is a Constitutional right.

That being said with rights also come responsibility. So, there should be consequences for negligence and misuse.

So, a kid gets killed by a weapon left unsecured the owner should get charged with manslaughter, a kid gets hurt by an unsecured weapon the owner gets charged with assault with a deadly weapon. One's teenager gets a weapon and kills a classmate then the weapon owner gets charged with accessory to murder etc., etc..

Fair enough?

No, not at all.

If your kid on his learners permit takes your keys while your out with the wife, decides to just "get some practice" driving around the block, gets all cocky and runs over the crazy cat lady down the street, you going down for manslaughter?

If your kid decides to be cool like the Big kids at school and takes your meds out of yoru med cabinet or off your sink, gives it to another kid and the kid dies, you going down for manslaughter? Maybe contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

How about your kid has some friends over and they are playing with your steak knifes to see who can stick it in the wall the furthest, and a kid takes one that bounces off the wall in the eye and dies. You going down for manslaughter?

Or your pre-teen swipes a bunch of liquor, shares it with his buddies and one dies on the football field at the local high school? You down to catch a felony for not locking up your booze? That happened actually, Eddie Schrader, my freshman year at Oakland High School in Murfreesboro TN. Funny kid, died of alcohol poisoning week before we started high school.

So WTH makes you think a gun is any different? Our world is dangerous. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. This unfortunately includes children and stupid people.

Educate and train your kids if you want them to survive. this includes who to associate with, how to cross a street, why drugs are bad, why you dont play with things that can and will hurt you.

Parents can only do so much. If you think your "safe" with your lockbox your a fool. My parents had a lockbox, and we all knew the combination to it and where the spare key was kept. Its cool if you have those things and I am not saying they do not provide some peace of mind. My non-CA compliant guns are locked in a safe right now in CO, and I am positive that they are and willbe just fine there. However, I do not put my faith in those to protect my kid from himself. Do not be a fool and hide behind locks, safes, etc. and instead put your faith in education, training, and good parenting.

[ChuckDizzle]

I don't think there should be storage etc. laws per se after all it is a Constitutional right.

That being said with rights also come responsibility. So, there should be consequences for negligence and misuse.

So, a kid gets killed by a weapon left unsecured the owner should get charged with manslaughter, a kid gets hurt by an unsecured weapon the owner gets charged with assault with a deadly weapon. One's teenager gets a weapon and kills a classmate then the weapon owner gets charged with accessory to murder etc., etc..

Fair enough?

Absolutely, and that's the current law we have now in California, and a similar law is in place in Texas.

[baggss]

That being said with rights also come responsibility. So, there should be consequences for negligence and misuse.

Fair enough?

Essentially this is what CAs Safe Storage law does.

Obviously what we need are two sets of laws. One set for Chuck here and the stupid people he keeps bring up and another for American's who's rights are protected by the Constitution.

To be fair, it's not Chuck. Reading back through the thread Win231 and SanDiego67 are advocating for further laws much more than Chuck is, although he did bring up the Stupid people skit by George Carlin.

[ChuckDizzle]

Essentially this is what CAs Safe Storage law does.



To be fair, it's not just Chick. Win321 and a few others seem to be more advocating more laws than Chuck is.

I've never advocated for any new laws in this thread, just said I like California's law, especially how it is posted at the LGS as a reminder.

Edit: and the stupid people skit is just a reference to the fact we often apply our own standards of good sense and judgement to an assumption that others behave in the same way. It's a natural bias we have towards ourselves.

[Win231]

No, not at all.

If your kid on his learners permit takes your keys while your out with the wife, decides to just "get some practice" driving around the block, gets all cocky and runs over the crazy cat lady down the street, you going down for manslaughter?

If your kid decides to be cool like the Big kids at school and takes your meds out of yoru med cabinet or off your sink, gives it to another kid and the kid dies, you going down for manslaughter? Maybe contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

How about your kid has some friends over and they are playing with your steak knifes to see who can stick it in the wall the furthest, and a kid takes one that bounces off the wall in the eye and dies. You going down for manslaughter?

Or your pre-teen swipes a bunch of liquor, shares it with his buddies and one dies on the football field at the local high school? You down to catch a felony for not locking up your booze? That happened actually, Eddie Schrader, my freshman year at Oakland High School in Murfreesboro TN. Funny kid, died of alcohol poisoning week before we started high school.

So WTH makes you think a gun is any different? Our world is dangerous. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. This unfortunately includes children and stupid people.

Educate and train your kids if you want them to survive. this includes who to associate with, how to cross a street, why drugs are bad, why you dont play with things that can and will hurt you.

Parents can only do so much. If you think your "safe" with your lockbox your a fool. My parents had a lockbox, and we all knew the combination to it and where the spare key was kept. Its cool if you have those things and I am not saying they do not provide some peace of mind. My non-CA compliant guns are locked in a safe right now in CO, and I am positive that they are and willbe just fine there. However, I do not put my faith in those to protect my kid from himself. Do not be a fool and hide behind locks, safes, etc. and instead put your faith in education, training, and good parenting.

If you all knew the combination to your parents' lockbox, your parents were negligent.

[FAS1]

I've never advocated for any new laws in this thread, just said I like California's law, especially how it is posted at the LGS as a reminder.

Does it just feel good or is there any actual statistics that show it has made a difference?

[ChuckDizzle]

Does it just feel good or is there any actual statistics that show it has made a difference?

Quoted from one of my responses above:


These types of shootings are rare enough that it is difficult to measure the impact of the effectiveness of a safe storage law on their occurrence. And in all likelihood a parent negligent enough to allow access of their child to loaded firearms, resulting in death or injury, is not likely to follow the safe storage law anyways.

However, some laws aren't only about prevention of crime, they are about justice for the victims. Again, we seem to be in agreement that if dwalker overestimates the maturity of his child or his parenting skills and his kid takes a gun to school, the park, or whatever and hurts one of our kids that dwalker should be held accountable in some way.

[Win231]

It can also be expensive.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/their-6-year-old-was-killed-with-a-neighbor%e2%80%99s-gun-a-court-just-decided-how-much-his-life-was-worth/ar-BBtsvAB?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=DELLDHP

[71MUSTY]

Does it just feel good or is there any actual statistics that show it has made a difference?

Statistics, of course there are statistics. And the difference is huge, I mean HUGE. Let me tell you without this law there would be millions, yes millions of children dying every day in California.

[9mm84]

There is 2 sides and 2 perspectives. I know the people in this story personally. Closely related to me, and because of gun locks, their kids were not able to defend themselves against an intruder who brutally murdered 2 of their kids with a pitchfork. Can gun locks save lives? Maybe....Can they cost a life? Maybe....You decide.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/11/more-on-merced-pitchfork-murdersgun.html

[Win231]

There is 2 sides and 2 perspectives. I know the people in this story personally. Closely related to me, and because of gun locks, their kids were not able to defend themselves against an intruder who brutally murdered 2 of their kids with a pitchfork. Can gun locks save lives? Maybe....Can they cost a life? Maybe....You decide.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/1...urdersgun.html

Reminds me of people who say seat belts don't save lives & they'll cite one incident where someone drowned because they couldn't get their seat belt off when their car plunged into a river.

Yes, perhaps the daughter may have been able to defend herself in this one incident, but in the first half of 2016, 65 children were killed by guns left lying around the house unsecured.