Frustrated... can't shoot 1/2 moa

[Exodus343]

An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

Hey Greg, once you are finished moving I could really use your mentoring for match shooting and reloading

I'll bring some japanese soda to keep you happy



*edit

or even japanese beer, since I turn 21 soon hehehe

[M1Kev]

Gale McMillan (of McMillan stocks, barrel manufacturer, and competitive shooter with many titles under his belt in Benchrest, High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore to name a few) says that break in procedures are a marketing scheme. He even claims to know the guy who started it. Not sure if it is true, but McMillan makes some mighty fine sticks and has for years. I would have to say I trust his advice.

Sources

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

[Untamed1972]

But I shoot better with a bipod on prone?

Sorry for forgetting the details
I'm shooting a 20" R700 LTR with 168 hpbt factory seconds (most likely Sierra) at 100 yards

And my rifle is capable of sub-MOA

I prefer laying the rifle over a backpack vs. a bipod when in the prone.

From there prolly need to work on your breathing control. Only take the shot at the botto of your exhale and watch your trigger control.

[Wrangler John]

Gale McMillan (of McMillan stocks, barrel manufacturer, and competitive shooter with many titles under his belt in Benchrest, High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore to name a few) says that break in procedures are a marketing scheme. He even claims to know the guy who started it. Not sure if it is true, but McMillan makes some mighty fine sticks and has for years. I would have to say I trust his advice.

Sources

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

And they would all be wrong too.

[bubbapug1]

There is So much misinformation in this thread you'll never get to your goal if you listen to 1/10 of it.

Read "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold Vaughn to get an idea what screws up a guns accuracy.

Stay away from Amax'a unless you want your group opening up even more. The construction of an AMAX does not lend itself to tight groups, and if it did match shooters would use them and they don't. You will see bergers, Sierra SMK's, and Nosler CC's, but Amax are not on the firing line, not the ones with polymer tips anyway.

Shti can the bipod and get a good front and rear rest.

Buy some SMK's or nosler CC's and load them up. Your powder is fine for 308. While the powder valley 175's and 168's look good who knows why Sierra trashed them. It could be because the jackets were out of spec, it could be a lot of things, but for some reason QC flunked them out of the production runs.

Try to Load up some very tightly controlled rounds by weighing the powder for each load individually. Set the bullet carefully and not in a progressive unless all stations are being used. The shell plate can and does tip resulting in variations of the OAL, and hence the pressure for that load.

Go to Angeles early before the wind picks up and shoot the gun free recoil to allow it to vibrate freely shot to shot. Stick a recoil pad behind the stock so the scope doesn't smack you in the face. Be sure not to jerk the trigger. Do 5 dry fires first with your crosshairs on the target to see how your pull is. If the gun moves at all during dry fire, you need to continue until its stops moving. Hold the thumb behind the trigger guard and the trigger finger on the trigger. Those two digits are the only thing human touching the gun, and don't grab the trigger guard that hard either!! Do not grasp the stock in any manner. Do not impede the first 1" of travel of the rifle back off the sandbags.

Try at least 3 or four different loads to see which works best. One load may just be the right velocity to allow the gun to have little variation in its harmonic frequency from shot to shot to allow you a tight group....or maybe not. I am not familiar with your model gun....but I do have Tikka Tactical which shoots sub moa from group to group consistently if you do your part. However, it only does it in free recoil and that's not real world unless your shooting f class or benchrest.

If that doesn't get you closer, you at least removed 50% of the variables such as a bad hold, inconsistant velocities, bad bullets, and the #1 probable cause, the wind. Wind has more effect on group sizes than you may realize....try to shoot in steady conditions.

Than go to a few Burbank rifle club or Santa margarita gun club matches and meet some real verified marksman/gun makers who really know and have proven their competence and let them lead you to the path of true gun ammo enlightenment. Most others are arm chair shooters who have NO proven track record or scores to prove they can really produce the goods... And some of these arm chair shooters who have vented their spleen on you in this thread are actually too cowardly to go to a scored event for fear of being outed as simple blowhards or worse.

[LynnJr]

Still mad that I(and a load of other people) recommended someone learn fundamentals on a .22lr bro?

Not at all.If you have limited funds and can't get to a range and you want to plink by all means shoot your 22.If however you want to shoot 1000 yards with your 308 leave your 22 at home and shoot your 308.This isn't that hard to understand for most people.
Now as why your posts are some of the worst I have ever seen on the internet.

I have read several of your posts and they don't have any value to them or they or dead wrong with regards to there facts.You have posted over 12,000 times but you should spend a little bit of time actually doing some reading or shooting so you could give a halfway decent response.You don't understand headspace yet you want to give out accuracy advice and this to any accuracy
minded shooter should be well understood before giving out advice.I am not saying to stop posting I am saying if you don't know ask rather than giving out bad info.

Wrangler John
A very good post and of course you are correct.

Csacannoneer
An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

We definitely don't agree on this.Yes if you could simply extend your 100 yard groups to 1000 yards in a linear fashion a 0.6 would be 6+ at 1000 yards but there is a thing called DISPERSION that throws a monkey wrench into just multiplying by 10 or adding some wind.
My rifles will shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards way more times than they will shoot 2.5 inches at 1000 yards and that is exactly why we compete at 1000 yards and not 100 yards.

Exodus343
If I was further south we could do all the swaps I mentioned in minutes not hours then spend a few hours developing your load for accuracy.I have test beds for the short action 700 and the long action 700 that take the shooter out of the accuracy equation and let you see what your barreled action is capable of.This seems like a drastic step but it is actually a huge time and money saver in that it lets you know right away if your barrel is a tomato stake or if it's a shooter.

If the ammo needs to be seated long it would be seated long then I would show you how to measure it so a reamer with a shorter freebore could be used on a set-back so you don't have magazine issues.A simple barrel setback does however cost money so I would only recommend something like that only if needed and only if your best groups were small enough to warrant the expense.
As Wrangler John posted 1/2 moa is hunting good not benchrest good so if after all the steps were taken your gun still shot 5/8 groups I wouldn't waste any more time or money with a barrel like that.I would pull it off and sell it with as low a round count on it as possible and move up to a custom barrel.

I would also put Wrangler John on my people to follow there advice list as this is the first post from him that I have read and it tells it like it is.

[Merc1138]

Not at all.If you have limited funds and can't get to a range and you want to plink by all means shoot your 22.If however you want to shoot 1000 yards with your 308 leave your 22 at home and shoot your 308.This isn't that hard to understand for most people.
Now as why your posts are some of the worst I have ever seen on the internet.

I have read several of your posts and they don't have any value to them or they or dead wrong with regards to there facts.You have posted over 12,000 times but you should spend a little bit of time actually doing some reading or shooting so you could give a halfway decent response.You don't understand headspace yet you want to give out accuracy advice and this to any accuracy
minded shooter should be well understood before giving out advice.I am not saying to stop posting I am saying if you don't know ask rather than giving out bad info.

Wrangler John
A very good post and of course you are correct.

Csacannoneer
An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

We definitely don't agree on this.Yes if you could simply extend your 100 yard groups to 1000 yards in a linear fashion a 0.6 would be 6+ at 1000 yards but there is a thing called DISPERSION that throws a monkey wrench into just multiplying by 10 or adding some wind.
My rifles will shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards way more times than they will shoot 2.5 inches at 1000 yards and that is exactly why we compete at 1000 yards and not 100 yards.

Exodus343
If I was further south we could do all the swaps I mentioned in minutes not hours then spend a few hours developing your load for accuracy.I have test beds for the short action 700 and the long action 700 that take the shooter out of the accuracy equation and let you see what your barreled action is capable of.This seems like a drastic step but it is actually a huge time and money saver in that it lets you know right away if your barrel is a tomato stake or if it's a shooter.

If the ammo needs to be seated long it would be seated long then I would show you how to measure it so a reamer with a shorter freebore could be used on a set-back so you don't have magazine issues.A simple barrel setback does however cost money so I would only recommend something like that only if needed and only if your best groups were small enough to warrant the expense.
As Wrangler John posted 1/2 moa is hunting good not benchrest good so if after all the steps were taken your gun still shot 5/8 groups I wouldn't waste any more time or money with a barrel like that.I would pull it off and sell it with as low a round count on it as possible and move up to a custom barrel.

I would also put Wrangler John on my people to follow there advice list as this is the first post from him that I have read and it tells it like it is.

LOL, so it's not the .22lr bit, it's the headspace thing you're still butthurt over? Issues, you've got them. Of course there you go again obsessing over my post count when you're the only one that seems to give a crap about it.

[thegiff]

Different strokes, barrel break-in yes/no and so on.Factory barrels seem to need it, I've only had two custom barrels and both shot great groups right from the beginning with no fouling. I clean every 300 to 400 rounds or so, and leave dry, and really prefer to shoot a fouled barrel.

Plenty of great advice and some really suspect advice.

So, to summarize and give my 2cents...

1) Shooter new to highpower precision rifle, wants perfect groups from the get-go with little practice.
Directed practice is even better. Clinics are great, I've attended a couple and they are really helpful. Having an good, experienced shooter to coach you would be really helpful also.

2) Shooting:

a. Shot prep, is parallax perfect?
b. Position good? Both shooter and rifle.
c. Load and make ready
d. NPOA (confirm b.)
e. Control breathing, aim and take the shot
f. Follow through (call the shot and verify)
g. Repeat from b.

3) Unverified rifle/ammo

a. Rifle probably needs to be tuned, adjusted or modified. Example: my Remington 700 came with an HS precision stock that had an aluminum bedding block. The shots walked, as much as 1.5” at 100yd until it was bedded. My other is a Surgeon based custom, it shot great from the beginning.
b. Ammo is not known good. At minimum, shooter needs to use off the shelf match ammo, for the .308, federal gold medal is the standard but I’m sure others are good too. FYI, Federal loads to a velocity, that velocity is 2600fps, and they have used three powders to achieve their legendary accuracy. It happens that 2600fps hits the biggest, fattest accuracy node on the majority of .308 rifles out there.
c. Further advice: For reloading, the ammo can be tuned to the rifle. Follow the OCW method, it has worked for me 3 times. Reason is that finding a good load doesn’t take long, and more time and effort can be spent on shooting. Problem is, 1) a. needs to be settled first. Example: I helped a guy a month or so ago, he was using the OCW method and had tried over more than 200 rounds to find his load. His rifle used a manners mini chassis (an aluminum bedding block, similar to but superior I think to the HS Precision bedding block). Anyway, we determined that it needed to be skim bedded, and the best groups went from 1moa to .25moa.
d. Easiest to verify if a known good shooter shoots a couple of groups with the unverified rifle/ammo.

4) Shooter said that he was fighting the rear bag.

a. Shooter needs to practice more, see 1) a., and follow previous recommendations on NPOA.

5) Unverified shooter

a. Shooter should try and find someone willing to let him use their known good equipment for a couple of group shots. Many at a tactical rifle match would probably be willing to help out.

[killshot44]

This is going to a great thread by page five....

"Why won't my stock factory Rem700 shoot 1/2moa after I've been behind it three whole times?"

[CobraRed]

This is going to a great thread by page five....

"Why won't my stock factory Rem700 shoot 1/2moa after I've been behind it three whole times?"

Because of your headspace

[Exodus343]

This is going to a great thread by page five....

"Why won't my stock factory Rem700 shoot 1/2moa after I've been behind it three whole times?"

advice would be nice also

[HK Dave]

There isn't anything mystical about shooting .5" groups or smaller. In fact, I consider .5" accuracy at 100 yards the minimum viable accuracy for varmint hunting. I do nothing but build up varmint rifles and hunt ground squirrels.

There are a few personal rules I maintain when developing a new rifle and working up a load. Today, many factory rifles and ammunition are quite capable of rivaling a high end varmint rifle, which is good thing. Experimentation is necessary and experience points us to the direction to take.

Break in the barrel. Some wags say this isn't necessary, but they are wrong. One gun writer wrote an entire article about not being able to see the difference in barrel finish through a bore scope while breaking in a rifle. Yet he could not see the microscopic and internal stress changes that occurred as the process progressed. New barrels need to be cleaned before the first shot, really cleaned, to remove manufacturing gunk and proof load residue ( if any) and any residual lapping compound. Then the bore needs to be lubricated with an anti-fouling compound. I have used Grafoil, Lock-Ease, Lyman's Moly Bore Paste, Holland's Witches Brew Bore Lube, and most recently Hornady's First Firing New Gun Bore & Action Conditioner. I fire one shot, clean and relube and fire again, repeating the process for five shots. Then increase to 5 shots between cleaning and relubing for 20 shots. Finally, I run 10 shots between each cleaning and lubing cycle. At some point between 30 and 50 shots there is usually a significant reduction in group size and a drop in bore fouling. This is the break in point. Most fouling is coming from the chamber throat, where copper is liberated from the bullet and deposited down the bore as a plasma. Once the throat is "polished" (actually its eroded, smoothing the chamber reamer marks) fouling is reduced. Never overheat a barrel, keep it cool by allowing time between shots.

From then on I lube the barrel before shooting or hunting with one or another bore lubes. I never shoot a dry bore, even with the polygonal rifled barrels.

Mounting a scope is as important as any other part of building a rifle. The base (s) must precisely fit the contour of the receiver, without any misalignment that can introduce stress in the base or rings relative to the scope tube. The rings must align centered with each other when attached to the base. I use Ken Farrell bases for the most part because they are set up for epoxy bedding to the action. This does not glue the base to the receiver, the epoxy adheres just to the base, filling in any space(s) between the action and base, keeping it dead flat. Two piece bases must be checked to be certain that they are in perfect alignment with each other and level across the top, otherwise they must be shimmed or fitted. I use Burris Signature Zee Rings with the bushings to reduce stress on the scope tube and torque all screws using a precision torque gauge. I never use thread locking compound, but clean the screws and lightly oil them to provide accurate torque settings - they never come loose.

Bottom metal or action screw tension has a profound effect on grouping as does stock bedding. Below is an illustration of how action screw torque effects grouping. This is a three screw Savage action, but the process transfers to the two screw Remington action that can bend if bedding is off and the screws not properly set. I settled on 35-35-30 in lb front, mid and rear screws.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/308win/

I know you can do it. Shooting is similar to playing a musical instrument, it takes time to learn the discipline and develop muscle memory. What I learned from working several years at a public firing range is that isolating yourself from muzzle blast is important, wear ear plugs and muffs both. That helps reduce the flinchies. When I shot competitive metallic silhouette matches, I learned to conquer recoil of handguns that could make my hand bleed, this is the greatest obstacle - to ignore recoil and just let it happen. My new .308 Winchester barrel will be equipped with a Vais muzzle brake because less recoil allows me more shots without fatigue. Muzzle blast exposure, including from adjacent shooters, and recoil can cause a form of concussion. If you develop a headache after a shooting session, or feel wrung out - that's concussion.

Wow I had no idea that the torque on an action could affect grouping to that extent. This actually might explain a few things. Going to have to play around with this.

[Exodus343]

Wow I had no idea that the torque on an action could affect grouping to that extent. This actually might explain a few things. Going to have to play around with this.

anyone got a Torque wrench I can borrow?

[Stockton]

Well here are a few tips. From my knowledge of owning and shooting an LTR, my experience is they are out of box moa rifles at 100yds (with match grade ammo). Unless you have something seriously wrong with you or rifle I would say that ammo is the first to get rid of.

Torque your stock, base, and rings to proper specs.
Use match grade ammo
Lose the bipod (for now) and use a sand bag
Dry fire a lot.(Find an inanimate object to put scope on and work on fundamentals)
Have fun!

LOL...cause non of that made any sense and now you are looking for a torque wrench. Ok!

Wheeler Fat Wrench or Seekonk if you cannot get a loaner.

[jonzer77]

tagged for the lulz