30-06 Reloading issue

[Redemption]

-sigh-

[liber]

-sigh-

Please explain rather than slapping your forehead. You mentioned your reloads wouldn't chamber. Either the size of the neck is too large or the shoulder is too far forward. Unless I'm missing something, your shoulder is not being sized correctly.

If the die is reamed too deep as pacrat implied, that should show up in a case gauge, no?

Since pacrat mentioned asking questions is the way to learn, I might as well put this one in here also.

I went through and processed about 800 30-06 brass and just did my first 25 tonight. I do not have a case length gauge but got my brass trimmed properly.

How can you be sure you have your sizing die set properly without a case gauge? Especially given the fact that yours didn't chamber.

[Redemption]

Please explain rather than slapping your forehead. You mentioned your reloads wouldn't chamber. Either the size of the neck is too large or the shoulder is too far forward. Unless I'm missing something, your shoulder is not being sized correctly.

If the die is reamed too deep as pacrat implied, that should show up in a case gauge, no?

Since pacrat mentioned asking questions is the way to learn, I might as well put this one in here also.



How can you be sure you have your sizing die set properly without a case gauge?

This is what I mean when I said earlier in this thread that there have been a lot of 'diner stop offs' This confuses the facts. Initially this was started because I had a set of 25 reloads that were 'tight to chamber' / 'tight to lock the bolt' that does not mean they will not chamber.

Some things were done to those rounds after in experimentation that have rendered that 25 rounds to more or less be fireable throw away rounds. They will fire and fireform the brass but thats about as good as they will be. We eventually moved off that topic and on to brass. The story with the brass is the same, it will chamber but 'it is excessively difficult to lock the bolt'

The question about weather or not the case gauge will catch it is not an exacting answer. It is an answer with a lot of variable. The cheaper go/no go gauges will catch the more obvious defects, but it is also a machined surface, it is subject to variables such as over or under machining so all it really tells you is if it is close to factory spec, not if it is or is not close to your chamber. Adding another variable to a system with a lot of moving parts. There is a massive argument that takes place over this gauge and both sides of that argument are absurd so we are basically now opening yet another talking point for people to cherry pick sections of the thread to argue their various stance. What the go/no go gauge boils down to TO ME is to avoid cartridges that are excessively long and could result in slam fires, this gauge will show that, which is more of a risk in rifles with floating firing pins.

There is a second kind of much more expensive gauge you can use that allows you to set a ZERO based off of brass you measured that has been fired from your own rifle which will allow you to set a shoulder zero that you can then accurately measure your sized cases to. (I hope I am describing this right I have never used one but have watched videos explaining their use)

The cheap type is known to miss issues with cartridges that are slightly off I know I just know someone is going to try to argue this, I honestly can see it now and as I am typing it I am regretting the words because I guarantee some head in the sand person is going to show up on scene telling me gauges are never wrong and that in the 100 years hes been reloading every gauge he has ever touched was also touched by the hand of god and is beyond suspicion. but I have seen several threads and several videos where people have had problems. The expensive type is accurate but the problem can be mitigated IMO for free simply by chambering the brass to see how well it chambers, and overly long ones can be caught with a run of the mill calipers.

Because my die is doing a sloppy **** job about sizing the neck there has been a lot of debate about if its the neck or if is is the shoulder and well as if it is the adjustment. Additionally the water has been muddied by confusion about weather my die is FL or neck only.

"If the die is reamed too deep as pacrat implied, that should show up in a case gauge, no?"

Lets follow this line of logic for a moment, How much was it reamed? why did they ream it? which part did they ream? We could be talking as small as 1/6 of a human hair maybe 1/3 what chamber were they opening it up for? how are you going to measure that without taking a case of the inside dimension of the die? Then we need to look at the rifle, was it machined a little tight? what about that go/no go gauge, was it machined tight? loose? Do you see how depending on which answers we give to those questions the outcome can be entirely different, and how by answering that question as honestly as I feel about it is likely to amount to an awful lot of huffing and puffing from the purists?

If I were to attempt to satisfy every demand/ line of questioning Ive had about this I would be 2 grand into a bore scope, a plethora of gauges, chamber and die casting equipment, $400 plus dollar replacement dies, my children would be going hungry and I would be asking myself more than ever why I ever bothered to ask. Im unfortunately not a retired guy with a great pension and a lot of money to burn. I am a young guy with a family to raise.

Now on to adjustment. There is a video posted in this thread by me in about 5 places where I can be seen adjusting the die. The critics who initially were insisting that I maladjusted the die in the single stage press got really quiet about that topic as soon as that video went up and moved onto other points of complaint concerning lubes and other various things.

You may just be asking me an honest question but the next guy is likely to try to argue out the value of go gauges that likely wouldnt have caught this to begin with.

40 years ago plenty of reloaders reloaded .308 and 30-06 with no press, with a die set that fit into a small die box that was an all in one.

[liber]

"If the die is reamed too deep as pacrat implied, that should show up in a case gauge, no?"

Lets follow this line of logic for a moment, How much was it reamed? why did they ream it? which part did they ream?

I was thinking it would be at least the amount your neck was not being sized and that it was the shoulder that was reamed too deep in the die, hence why it wasn't bumping the shoulder. They need to ream them for the case shape, so presumably they reamed it too much.

You may just be asking me an honest question but the next guy is likely to try to argue out the value of go gauges that likely wouldnt have caught this to begin with.

They might be stupid questions but they were honest and I wasn't trying to poke fun at you in any way. The reason I asked is I did watch the video and saw how you adjusted the die. I have a Dillon press and did mine differently, and I did use a case gauge. When you set yours you took the sizing die to the shell plate and then adjusted it an 1/8th or 1/4 turn. The way I did mine was to take it about .060" from the shell plate and then started testing a case that I ran through it, with a case gauge. I continued to adjust it until I got the head down where I wanted it just above the low mark on the head side. I then checked to make sure it was not sticking out the other end past the high mark. I also tested the OAL with a caliper to make sure the case was not too long.

My understanding is that the case gauge will measure a few things, and as you pointed out it will measure a long case, but it will also base that on the shoulder. Since the shoulder is what really determines how the round gets chambered, if the shoulder is too far back you would see that with the neck sticking out the end of the case gauge. On the converse, if the shoulder is too far forward you will see the head sticking up over the high end on the other side. So, while what you say is true that the case gauge is not a very sophisticated tool, it does get you in the ballpark. I was under the impression that you would need a case gauge to determine where the shoulder is in relation to the case, and ultimately that will effect how the bullet sits in the chamber. Maybe I'm wrong, again, not trying to trick you but that is how I understand the case gauge. There is not a lot of variance on either end, like .005 or so between low and high on each side.

I should also add for clarity that if the neck is sticking out past the end of the case gauge, it means you need to trim the case. The trimming is done based on the shoulder also.

Once the head goes past the low mark on the case gauge, the case is not usable anymore, no matter what is happening on the neck end.

Am I misunderstanding how the case gauge works?

[Redemption]

I was thinking it would be at least the amount your neck was not being sized and that it was the shoulder that was reamed too deep in the die, hence why it wasn't bumping the shoulder. They need to ream them for the case shape, so presumably they reamed it too much.



They might be stupid questions but they were honest and I wasn't trying to poke fun at you in any way. The reason I asked is I did watch the video and saw how you adjusted the die. I have a Dillon press and did mine differently, and I did use a case gauge. When you set yours you took the sizing die to the shell plate and then adjusted it an 1/8th or 1/4 turn. The way I did mine was to take it about .060" from the shell plate and then started testing a case that I ran through it, with a case gauge. I continued to adjust it until I got the head down where I wanted it just above the low mark on the head side. I then checked to make sure it was not sticking out the other end past the high mark. I also tested the OAL with a caliper to make sure the case was not too long.

My understanding is that the case gauge will measure a few things, and as you pointed out it will measure a long case, but it will also base that on the shoulder. Since the shoulder is what really determines how the round gets chambered, if the shoulder is too far back you would see that with the neck sticking out the end of the case gauge. On the converse, if the shoulder is too far forward you will see the head sticking up over the high end on the other side. So, while what you say is true that the case gauge is not a very sophisticated tool, it does get you in the ballpark. I was under the impression that you would need a case gauge to determine where the shoulder is in relation to the case, and ultimately that will effect how the bullet sits in the chamber. Maybe I'm wrong, again, not trying to trick you but that is how I understand the case gauge. There is not a lot of variance on either end, like .005 or so between low and high on each side.

I should also add for clarity that if the neck is sticking out past the end of the case gauge, it means you need to trim the case. The trimming is done based on the shoulder also.

Once the head goes past the low mark on the case gauge, the case is not usable anymore, no matter what is happening on the neck end.

Am I misunderstanding how the case gauge works?

Nor am I trying to be a jerk back, I promise. I am not sure how one adjusts turret or progressive presses, all of the videos I have watched recommend this adjustment for single stage presses, either way though what it ensures is the the shell holder gets the deepest possible insertion of the brass into battery of the die, so it wouldnt be the cause of brass that doesnt get the shoulder bumped by an FL die. Ive measured the brass so I know its within SAAMI spec to still be good for use.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

The above link is for the SAAMI measurements for brass and it shows the SAAMI measurements for the inside dimensions of the chamber below. These are only standards you have to remember, it doesnt mean that by the hand of god all tools you come in contact with will by default be correct.

The case gauge is meant to be machined off these specifications which is what you find your factory ammunition sized to, the same statement being true about dies (unless you have so much money you spend hundreds of dollars on dies made to your chamber). Your rifle could be another story all together. Your use of the gauge is proper as far as I understand yes, but lets use this. Lee is your run of the mill brand, their basically good gear normally. So far I have had a bad lee bullet mold, a defective press part and a bad die, all Lee products. This stuff is all built by people and machines ran by people, thus subject to error from bad carbide bits, dull bits, poor machine zeroing, human error, poor machine maintenance, parts that slip through quality control.

Then we have the rifle which is subject to all of the same factors and quality can vary from the $400 on up to the people who pay more for their rifles than I do for my car. The era of the rifle can even play a part in how the tolerances are on the rifle and their not tested to custom cartridges, their tested to factory loads. If we were to cast the chamber on 10 different 30-06 rifles from a plethora of brands, values and era's you are going to get different measurements on at least some of them.

So lets say your case gauge is 0.001 too deep, and your die is 0.001 too deep and your ID shoulder cut is 0.001 too shallow, and your brass was fire formed in a loose tolerance semi auto. your case gauge will never catch this issue and your brass may be difficult to chamber. Any number of variables are possible. Not knowing which 'item' is the cause, what would you assume is at fault? Would you immediately have your rifle loosened up? new gauge? toss the brass and start over? What if those measurements were different? The issue then may be easier to catch or maybe harder to pinpoint.

The purpose of the gauge is to prevent cases that are too long from finding their way into the chambers of rifles with floating firing pins which can result in a very dangerous slam fire, or being far too short and resulting in the cartridge failing, the first being a more common risk if I understand properly. the case gauge tells you some things but not everything.

The .223 guys have had a lot of problems with case gauges failing to catch 'errors' Ive read a few threads in other forums about the perplexing issue.

[thomashoward]

Beginning reloaders have much to learn. It is a hobby that you built up knowledge over a period of years. I'm 64 and have been reloading since 1980 and I still learn new things. If it's not done right it could bite you in the kiester
It amazes me the lengths people go to make something cheap or salvaged, work correctly instead of doing the right job the first time.
Please destroy that POS die so no one else has to go through the anguish you have

[JMP]

Redemption, can you do one more thing to rule out a possible easy issue. Can you resize on of your previously incorrectly sized cases with the decapping rod and expander ball removed? Then, check to see if it chambers. There's a chance that the decapping pin has an issue or is too deep that prevents full sizing. If you haven't, would you do this, please? There's a chance that this resolves the issue. Yes, I know we are going back to basics, but it worked when you did it on seated bullets. Please let us know if the results change if you haven't done this.

[FLIGHT762]

Redemption, can you do one more thing to rule out a possible easy issue. Can you resize on of your previously incorrectly sized cases with the decapping rod and expander ball removed? Then, check to see if it chambers. There's a chance that the decapping pin has an issue or is too deep that prevents full sizing. If you haven't, would you do this, please? There's a chance that this resolves the issue. Yes, I know we are going back to basics, but it worked when you did it on seated bullets. Please let us know if the results change if you haven't done this.

This was asked in post 117 and answered in post 118.

[liber]

Lee is your run of the mill brand, their basically good gear normally.

I am only a machinist by hobby, but to my eye they look like crap. They appear to have common bolts and washers that would come from the zinc bin at Home Depot...probably a bit over exaggerated, but that is what they look like online. I almost laughed at one of the ebay auctions that said, "convenient carry case" and showed a picture of a throw away plastic shipping case...In that regard, the RCBS dies that I commonly see around town look a bit better, at a minimal higher price point.

I will partially agree with some of JMP's comments earlier, that the dies are a critical piece of tooling for reloading. I won't go so far to say that someone needs to spend $700 in dies, but Redding would be what I would classify as being the high end acceptable, RCBS possibly being the minimal or low end. I'll most likely get some flame from folks that have reloaded with Lee dies since they were in diapers, but so be it...for my taste I would consider the RCBS the minimal as they look like most of the quality dies I've seen and the price difference is almost negligible it's so small between them and the Lees.

So lets say your case gauge is 0.001 too deep, and your die is 0.001 too deep and your ID shoulder cut is 0.001 too shallow, and your brass was fire formed in a loose tolerance semi auto.

Ok, so let's say it...you should still be able to get acceptable reloads. The difference between a go and a no-go gauge for chambering is .002 as I recall, and that is if your bolt is brand stinkin' new...there is some tolerance allowable on the go side. As far as sizing there's a much larger range in what the case length min/max is and how people trim them, but the shoulder is critical and that is determined by your sizing die.

The .223 guys have had a lot of problems with case gauges failing to catch 'errors' Ive read a few threads in other forums about the perplexing issue.

That very well may be, but I wouldn't use that as a rule of thumb for all calibers. I'd like to know how you would easily measure your shoulder without buying a lot of expensive equipment. The case gauge is an accepted minimal to use for reloading, AFAIK. In my Dillon manual it says you must have one to set the sizing die properly. That is why I was asking you about your comment.

Might be worth inspecting Fordtrucks' sizing die against yours, just to make sure the decapping rod and expander ball are assembled in exactly the same fashion, that all washers and bolts are the same and/or visually look the same as they are assembled. Not saying you will find anything, but it's worth a look if you haven't done that already.

[pacrat]

liber said

I am only a machinist by hobby, but to my eye they look like crap.

IMO Yes, in a "visual comparison".

But as I've used and own dies from almost every maker. [no Dillon's] Going back to sets of "Wells and also Bergstrom's" for 300 H&H and 30-06, I have that date from the 1930s. I have had many more QC problems with RCBS than any other makers. One die too short, one die too deep, multiple shell holders out of spec, sizing rings pulled out of carbide dies, etc.

RCBS has exemplary CS and a better lifetime warranty. But I've never had to avail myself of Lee's CS. So IMO that is a moot point.

RCBS dies come in nicer boxes. Especially when compared to the mickey mouse round stand up plastic crap that Lee has that don't lay flat or stack on a shelf.

Ok, so let's say it...you should still be able to get acceptable reloads. The difference between a go and a no-go gauge for chambering is .002 as I recall, and that is if your bolt is brand stinkin' new...there is some tolerance allowable on the go side. As far as sizing there's a much larger range in what the case length min/max is and how people trim them, but the shoulder is critical and that is determined by your sizing die.

Actually the min/max tolerance is .005" from datum for a 30-06. For an overall headspace tolerance of .010". Standard off the shelf FL sizing dies are "typically" cut just "short" of the min. Just like standard off the shelf factory ammo is "typically" manufactured just short of SAAMI spec for headspace. This is to assure that makers of dies and makers of ammo's products, will function in and with any production firearms.

Redemption was unlucky enought to get a FL sizing die that doesn't FL size.

Cause and effect....................Die too deep..............ammo don't fit gun.

Bummer it happens.

liber, if you want to compare what most experienced handloaders think of those gages. Look here

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1081469

I found JMP's response in post #17 pretty much sums it up, as well as being quite humorous.

As always JM2c

[Redemption]

Beginning reloaders have much to learn. It is a hobby that you built up knowledge over a period of years. I'm 64 and have been reloading since 1980 and I still learn new things. If it's not done right it could bite you in the kiester
It amazes me the lengths people go to make something cheap or salvaged, work correctly instead of doing the right job the first time.
Please destroy that POS die so no one else has to go through the anguish you have

So your saying I shouldnt resell it to some other new guy like that scummy F-head did to me? its going to get sectioned and Ill get a new die man. Im not going to put some other guy through the anguish Ive been through on this, not a chance. Besides this thread has taken the wind completely out of any desire I have to tinker and share.

Redemption, can you do one more thing to rule out a possible easy issue. Can you resize on of your previously incorrectly sized cases with the decapping rod and expander ball removed? Then, check to see if it chambers. There's a chance that the decapping pin has an issue or is too deep that prevents full sizing. If you haven't, would you do this, please? There's a chance that this resolves the issue. Yes, I know we are going back to basics, but it worked when you did it on seated bullets. Please let us know if the results change if you haven't done this.

As flight stated below already covered

This was asked in post 117 and answered in post 118.

Ty Flight!

I am only a machinist by hobby, but to my eye they look like crap. They appear to have common bolts and washers that would come from the zinc bin at Home Depot...probably a bit over exaggerated, but that is what they look like online. I almost laughed at one of the ebay auctions that said, "convenient carry case" and showed a picture of a throw away plastic shipping case...In that regard, the RCBS dies that I commonly see around town look a bit better, at a minimal higher price point.

I will partially agree with some of JMP's comments earlier, that the dies are a critical piece of tooling for reloading. I won't go so far to say that someone needs to spend $700 in dies, but Redding would be what I would classify as being the high end acceptable, RCBS possibly being the minimal or low end. I'll most likely get some flame from folks that have reloaded with Lee dies since they were in diapers, but so be it...for my taste I would consider the RCBS the minimal as they look like most of the quality dies I've seen and the price difference is almost negligible it's so small between them and the Lees.

Ok, so let's say it...you should still be able to get acceptable reloads. The difference between a go and a no-go gauge for chambering is .002 as I recall, and that is if your bolt is brand stinkin' new...there is some tolerance allowable on the go side. As far as sizing there's a much larger range in what the case length min/max is and how people trim them, but the shoulder is critical and that is determined by your sizing die.

That very well may be, but I wouldn't use that as a rule of thumb for all calibers. I'd like to know how you would easily measure your shoulder without buying a lot of expensive equipment. The case gauge is an accepted minimal to use for reloading, AFAIK. In my Dillon manual it says you must have one to set the sizing die properly. That is why I was asking you about your comment.

Might be worth inspecting Fordtrucks' sizing die against yours, just to make sure the decapping rod and expander ball are assembled in exactly the same fashion, that all washers and bolts are the same and/or visually look the same as they are assembled. Not saying you will find anything, but it's worth a look if you haven't done that already.

"Ok, so let's say it...you should still be able to get acceptable reloads."

Sure, now lets say you have brass turning out a t .442 instead of .397 and your chamber is .441 or .440 and your case gauge is .442 would you then still catch that issue, would your round chamber well? (the answer is no) variables. As stated above sizing without the expander has already been tested.

Not everyone has the kind of money laying around that is costs to purchase a Dillon progressive press, redding dies and every tool Dillon feels is necessary for reloading. You will find that a certain group of precision guys finds much fault with tolerances in progressive presses anyway, and when others start footing the bill for my equipment they can start dictating what kind of equipment I get. I am genuenly not trying to be an ******* with that statement but if I bought every piece of gear people have asserted I must have I would have long ago taken out a new car sized loan and be capable of turning out 1000 rounds and hour.... This is not within the type of reloading I am interested in doing. Will I get a case gauge? probably but not right at this moment and in this instance I dont think it would have caught this issue, thus sort of negating the point eh?

"I am only a machinist by hobby, but to my eye they look like crap. They appear to have common bolts and washers that would come from the zinc bin at Home Depot...probably a bit over exaggerated"

I can only assume this is in reference to Lee products. None of my Lee tools have zinc washers or bolts on them. But really there was a time when the common hunters who reloaded his own ammunition used a small all in one package that would practically fit in your pocket and it and a hammer or rock is all they needed to reload 30-06. There does come a point when a person is crossing over from reloading to munitions manufacturer.

I dont think you can really set the sizing deeper in this instance.... That is the opinion that represented about 2 pages of arguing.

[Redemption]

liber said



IMO Yes, in a "visual comparison".

But as I've used and own dies from almost every maker. [no Dillon's] Going back to sets of "Wells and also Bergstrom's" for 300 H&H and 30-06, I have that date from the 1930s. I have had many more QC problems with RCBS than any other makers. One die too short, one die too deep, multiple shell holders out of spec, sizing rings pulled out of carbide dies, etc.

RCBS has exemplary CS and a better lifetime warranty. But I've never had to avail myself of Lee's CS. So IMO that is a moot point.

RCBS dies come in nicer boxes. Especially when compared to the mickey mouse round stand up plastic crap that Lee has that don't lay flat or stack on a shelf.





Actually the min/max tolerance is .005" from datum for a 30-06. For an overall headspace tolerance of .010". Standard off the shelf FL sizing dies are "typically" cut just "short" of the min. Just like standard off the shelf factory ammo is "typically" manufactured just short of SAAMI spec for headspace. This is to assure that makers of dies and makers of ammo's products, will function in and with any production firearms.

Redemption was unlucky enought to get a FL sizing die that doesn't FL size.

Cause and effect....................Die too deep..............ammo don't fit gun.

Bummer it happens.

liber, if you want to compare what most experienced handloaders think of those gages. Look here

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1081469

I found JMP's response in post #17 pretty much sums it up, as well as being quite humorous.

As always JM2c

Ah pacrat, as always, the shining voice of reason.

[liber]

IMO Yes, in a "visual comparison".

I implied just that. They just don't look like something I would consider quality machining. OTOH, they don't cost what the Redding dies cost...surprised about the RCBS, I know many folks that have stacks of them on their reloading bench.

Actually the min/max tolerance is .005" from datum for a 30-06. For an overall headspace tolerance of .010".

Yes, on the cartridge, I was referring to the actual chamber go/no-go gauges that gunsmiths use when they chamber a rifle. The difference is .002 between those. Many smiths just use a go gauge and add a piece of tape to it to act as a no-go gauge.

liber, if you want to compare what most experienced handloaders think of those gages. Look here

Honestly I don't see a lot of opinions, but do see some opinions on both sides of the fence. I saw that thread when it started last week but haven't been following it. I will watch that video tonight, I'd like to know how to measure the shoulder properly if the case gauge is not it.

I used the case gauge, for better or worse and the cases appear good with a visual and measure out correctly, so I think the sizing die is doing it's thing. I won't know until I get to the range next week, but expect them to fire just fine.

[FLIGHT762]

Will I get a case gauge? probably but not right at this moment and in this instance I dont think it would have caught this issue, thus sort of negating the point eh?

I don't want to keep this thread going on forever, but I'll disagree that a case gauge would not have caught your issue. A case gauge, weather it is a Wilson type or the Hornady bump gauge comparator type or other, it would have immediately caught the issue of the die not pushing back the shoulders of the fired brass.

That is the reason I came to the discussion. I like using a gauge when setting up a F/L die. The numbers don't lie and will tell you exactly what is going on right away.

New reloaders come to this forum nearly weekly asking why their F/L sized cases won't chamber in their rifle. 95% of the time, is is simply turning the die into the press another 1/8-1/4 turn with the case shoulders being bumped back enough and the problem is solved.

The lesser causes are crimping the loads during the seating process and slightly crushing and deforming the shoulder, not allowing chambering, or having the decapping pin set too low and having the decapping rod bottoming out in the base of the case not allowing the case to be fully sized. You can also have cases that are way too long and case mouths are hitting the end of the chamber, which can be easily fixed by trimming the cases to proper length.

The rarest possibilities for me have been actually needing a small based die. The only Rifle I owned that really needed one was a Steyr SSG 69. That Rifle had a chamber cut so snug that it needed cases sized no larger than .4685" at the base to chamber, anything at .469" or over wouldn't chamber. A regular die wouldn't do it and even a RCBS small base die wouldn't do it. I eventually used a Redding S/B die which did the job nicely.

The other rarest possibility was in your case, a die that was cut too deep.

I'm glad you obtained another die and got this finally figured out.

[liber]

Not everyone has the kind of money laying around that is costs to purchase a Dillon progressive press, redding dies and every tool Dillon feels is necessary for reloading.

I'm not saying you should. Just because I prefer quality tooling doesn't mean that anyone else needs to. And yes, many people don't care for progressive presses at all, I know that. This has nothing to do with producing usable reloads.

I completely understand that all people do not appreciate quality dies enough to buy Redding, and some probably feel it's not needed. Some folks drive inexpensive cars, others drive higher precision cars that cost more...to each their own...but you have the choice what you spend your $$$s on, and if Lee provide you the satisfaction you expect, nothing wrong with changing.

But really there was a time when the common hunters who reloaded his own ammunition used a small all in one package that would practically fit in your pocket and it and a hammer or rock is all they needed to reload 30-06.

Yeah, and there was a time when people drooled over a Kentucky Long Rifle, they didn't need ammo, just a patch knife, some powder, a piece of cloth and a ball.

I dont think you can really set the sizing deeper in this instance.... That is the opinion that represented about 2 pages of arguing.

That's fair, was just curious if there was something physically wrong with your die other than being reamed incorrectly. That seems to be the general assumption with this thread.