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You guys are being way too emotional and not thinking through this critically. What I do in my business and what I do with my life has nothing to do with this.
So let's go through this hypothetically. You call the ATF and accuse the FFL of theft. First thing is they are probably going to not want to waste their time on this local matter. The real basis of everything the ATF does is to maintain the trace system so they can track down guns. This is straight out of my auditor's and her boss's mouth. So running over to find out why an FFL hasn't shipped a gun is probably not going to be a high priority.
Next, there are a whole host of reasons the FFL that is sitting on the pistol can give to why they haven't shipped it yet.
1. They haven't received the FFL's CFD number for a CFLC verification.
2. They didn't receive the money for the shipment back.
3. The seller didn't send enough money.
4. They haven't received the receiving FFLs license yet.
I mean I can keep making up all sorts of excuses. Now, are they legit excuses? No, probably not as the OP has explained they have been taking some pretty good due diligence on the issue. However, if the ATF calls or comes by and asks, these excuses would probably be enough to get the ATF to go away, assuming the ATF even takes the call to begin with.
Even if the local police show up, again, these same excuses will hold for quite some time.
Now do I bring these up because these are things I do? Hell no. In a case like this, I would probably ask for $40 shipping (knowing it would only cost $20 to ship it, but wanting to at least get $20 for the hassle of doing this) and then I would send it back to the guy. Or if I knew the local guy who stood him up and I knew the guy was a DB, then I might make it less and tell him I hate the dude too.
However, the common theme in this thread is that everyone seems to know what an FFL has or doesn't have to do and they also claim the ATF should do this and that. I don't think you guys get it and I am trying to educate you. The FFL with the gun has all of the power at this point. They have the OPs gun. They could say it costs $100 to ship it back. Does the OP have a contract? Is there any state or Federal code that states how such a process must occur? No. True the FFL has a license, but they are in no way mandated to process transfers. Only PPTs. This was a voluntary sale by the seller and they might not have a contract stipulating what occurs in this situation. So that might make it default to the store policy. What is the store policy? Well they could make up just about whatever they want at this point.
So seeing as the OP is really kind of stuck here if the FFL wants to be a first class penis about this, let's brain storm and see what we can do to make it in the FFL's interests to get the pistol back? I suggest paying them. Again, it would be nice if the dealer was cool and took care of a guy, but that apparently isn't happening. It is time to try something different.
Again, people won't be treated like this at my shop and it amazes me when I state facts how some of you get all worked up about it like it is some grander statement of FFLs in general or me specifically. I am an FFL telling you what is possible and what is not. Hopefully the majority of you are learning from this and taking steps to protect yourself.
Here is what I would do if I were a consumer.
#1: Never ship the firearm until payment is confirmed.
#2: Ask for the receiving FFLs policy on returning the pistol should the buyer be denied (this will also cover flaky buyers as well). If they don't have a policy, have them tell you specifically their course of action and make sure you receive it in writing.
#3: Keep all documentation.
#4: Solve the problem on the most effective level, locally. Filing a police report for stolen property with supporting documentation to the local police will probably force the local police to take action. A simple visit by the local police might get your gun moving, but you need to have a good case to make it happen.
Again, I am just a FFL that knows the business and knows what people are capable of. If you want to win this game, you need to know your rights, know what is and isn't required of an FFL, and then plan accordingly. Really you guys need to think about this like lawyers. How are you going to prove your case? What could the other lawyer do to counter? This isn't personal. Clearly some people in this thread don't understand it and just think a call to the ATF will magically fix everything.
Well give it a shot, call the ATF and tell us what happens. Considering there are probably thousands of ATF employees all across America, good luck even getting the person who handles this FFL's office number.
If you got the FFL's specific agent's phone number, you might see some results. If you get a different field office, they are going to pass the buck.
Good luck and you might want to out the FFL so others can avoid them.
So let's go through this hypothetically. You call the ATF and accuse the FFL of theft. First thing is they are probably going to not want to waste their time on this local matter. The real basis of everything the ATF does is to maintain the trace system so they can track down guns. This is straight out of my auditor's and her boss's mouth. So running over to find out why an FFL hasn't shipped a gun is probably not going to be a high priority.
Next, there are a whole host of reasons the FFL that is sitting on the pistol can give to why they haven't shipped it yet.
1. They haven't received the FFL's CFD number for a CFLC verification.
2. They didn't receive the money for the shipment back.
3. The seller didn't send enough money.
4. They haven't received the receiving FFLs license yet.
I mean I can keep making up all sorts of excuses. Now, are they legit excuses? No, probably not as the OP has explained they have been taking some pretty good due diligence on the issue. However, if the ATF calls or comes by and asks, these excuses would probably be enough to get the ATF to go away, assuming the ATF even takes the call to begin with.
Even if the local police show up, again, these same excuses will hold for quite some time.
Now do I bring these up because these are things I do? Hell no. In a case like this, I would probably ask for $40 shipping (knowing it would only cost $20 to ship it, but wanting to at least get $20 for the hassle of doing this) and then I would send it back to the guy. Or if I knew the local guy who stood him up and I knew the guy was a DB, then I might make it less and tell him I hate the dude too.
However, the common theme in this thread is that everyone seems to know what an FFL has or doesn't have to do and they also claim the ATF should do this and that. I don't think you guys get it and I am trying to educate you. The FFL with the gun has all of the power at this point. They have the OPs gun. They could say it costs $100 to ship it back. Does the OP have a contract? Is there any state or Federal code that states how such a process must occur? No. True the FFL has a license, but they are in no way mandated to process transfers. Only PPTs. This was a voluntary sale by the seller and they might not have a contract stipulating what occurs in this situation. So that might make it default to the store policy. What is the store policy? Well they could make up just about whatever they want at this point.
So seeing as the OP is really kind of stuck here if the FFL wants to be a first class penis about this, let's brain storm and see what we can do to make it in the FFL's interests to get the pistol back? I suggest paying them. Again, it would be nice if the dealer was cool and took care of a guy, but that apparently isn't happening. It is time to try something different.
Again, people won't be treated like this at my shop and it amazes me when I state facts how some of you get all worked up about it like it is some grander statement of FFLs in general or me specifically. I am an FFL telling you what is possible and what is not. Hopefully the majority of you are learning from this and taking steps to protect yourself.
Here is what I would do if I were a consumer.
#1: Never ship the firearm until payment is confirmed.
#2: Ask for the receiving FFLs policy on returning the pistol should the buyer be denied (this will also cover flaky buyers as well). If they don't have a policy, have them tell you specifically their course of action and make sure you receive it in writing.
#3: Keep all documentation.
#4: Solve the problem on the most effective level, locally. Filing a police report for stolen property with supporting documentation to the local police will probably force the local police to take action. A simple visit by the local police might get your gun moving, but you need to have a good case to make it happen.
Again, I am just a FFL that knows the business and knows what people are capable of. If you want to win this game, you need to know your rights, know what is and isn't required of an FFL, and then plan accordingly. Really you guys need to think about this like lawyers. How are you going to prove your case? What could the other lawyer do to counter? This isn't personal. Clearly some people in this thread don't understand it and just think a call to the ATF will magically fix everything.
Well give it a shot, call the ATF and tell us what happens. Considering there are probably thousands of ATF employees all across America, good luck even getting the person who handles this FFL's office number.
If you got the FFL's specific agent's phone number, you might see some results. If you get a different field office, they are going to pass the buck.
Good luck and you might want to out the FFL so others can avoid them.
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