1911 vs. Glock

[Robert1234]

Still if that is the case no need for DA or Glock type triggers on a semi auto.

Police have people at gun point all the time, so they might need the extra safety of a DA or Glock type trigger. I was just trying to explain the extra safety in DA and Glock triggers rplaw was talking about. Not having your finger on the trigger of a Glock is just as bad as still having safety on with a 1911.

Me if I had to point my pistol at someone I would most likely be firing so I have no need for a DA only or Glock type trigger on a semi auto pistol.

Agreed.

[crufflers]

Still if that is the case no need for DA or Glock type triggers on a semi auto.

Definitely subjective like most of these things where personal taste is what it is... but I don't think DAO or DA triggers have much in common with cocked striker Glock triggers. Glocks can have minimal take-up and a light wall... I would not want to rest my finger on that last brand new Gen3 G34 I tried (pointed at something I was not sure I would shoot)... and if it was mine I would have lightened/smoothed the wall even more with a Zev or TTI connector.

I have a DAO auto and it definitely has a heavier loooong pull... similar to my DAO revolver (hammerless and mechanically DAO also)... Kahr's have that kind of looong safe trigger too, but they are pretty LIGHT triggers IMHO. Glock triggers are not to leave your fingers on pointed at anything you might NOT want to destroy. I'm sure a lot of 1911 triggers go off with minute pad pressure, but probably not too much difference from a Glock with adrenalin and movement... finger on the trigger of a Glock or at the wall is not any kind of safety like a DA revolver, IMHO.

[TMB 1]

Definitely subjective like most of these things where personal taste is what it is... but I don't think DAO or DA triggers have much in common with cocked striker Glock triggers. Glocks can have minimal take-up and a light wall... I would not want to rest my finger on that last brand new Gen3 G34 I tried (pointed at something I was not sure I would shoot)... and if it was mine I would have lightened/smoothed the wall even more with a Zev or TTI connector.

I have a DAO auto and it definitely has a heavier loooong pull... similar to my DAO revolver (hammerless and mechanically DAO also)... Kahr's have that kind of looong safe trigger too, but they are pretty LIGHT triggers IMHO. Glock triggers are not to leave your fingers on pointed at anything you might NOT want to destroy. I'm sure a lot of 1911 triggers go off with minute pad pressure, but probably not too much difference from a Glock with adrenalin and movement... finger on the trigger of a Glock or at the wall is not any kind of safety like a DA revolver, IMHO.

I have a Kahr P45, a 1911, a SD9VE, multiple S&W revolvers and others, multiple SA revolvers, a couple DA/SA semi autos, several semi auto 22s with SA triggers, and even a couple Hi Points, Not mine but have also shot Glocks so I know about different triggers. I agree with you that the Kahr, SD9VE and Glock is not as safe as DA revolver, but they are much safer with finger on trigger than a cocked revolver especially S&W revolvers or 1911.

[crufflers]

I agree with you that the Kahr, SD9VE and Glock is not as safe as DA revolver, but they are much safer with finger on trigger than a cocked revolver especially S&W revolvers or 1911.

Yep, we agree.

My model 28 has no take-up in SA... it just goes bang with very little pressure. Same with my RIA Match (short light blip to the wall and very light pressure to break)... Springfield Loaded has a more gritty take-up and wall but not much worse. Still is a decent 1911 trigger. Glocks have more take-up comparatively but are cocked and ready to go internally and that wall can be pretty sensitive on a Glock especially with polishing and aftermarket connectors.

Someone mentioned they have the Glock Timney trigger... that one is supposed to be the Glock trigger that 1911 trigger fans have been waiting for (According to TTI - Taran).

I have one of those CZ rifles with a set trigger... now that is a insane stock trigger pull. Barely any skin needs to touch that shoe... blamo.

[deerdeerdeer]

Yep, we agree.

My model 28 has no take-up in SA... it just goes bang with very little pressure. Same with my RIA Match (short light blip to the wall and very light pressure to break)... Springfield Loaded has a more gritty take-up and wall but not much worse. Still is a decent 1911 trigger. Glocks have more take-up comparatively but are cocked and ready to go internally and that wall can be pretty sensitive on a Glock especially with polishing and aftermarket connectors.

Someone mentioned they have the Glock Timney trigger... that one is supposed to be the Glock trigger that 1911 trigger fans have been waiting for (According to TTI - Taran).

I have one of those CZ rifles with a set trigger... now that is a insane stock trigger pull. Barely any skin needs to touch that shoe... blamo.

All guns are safe unless its a manufacturer defect , IMO. If your having safety issues, your not training enough.

[crufflers]

All guns are safe unless its a manufacturer defect , IMO. If your having safety issues, your not training enough.

Keep you booger hook off the the the you know the thing.

[Rifle ronin]

Post #180 by DVRJON is on point.

But I like this little nugget under one of the pictures in the article:
"Despite being designed for military use, the G17 is a popular gun among both civilians and law enforcement in the U.S."

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Horror stories about how things went bad are legion and have no limits on what brand of weapon is used.

Training is key, but you have to train smart. Training smart begins with initially choosing tools that will do the job intended with the least amount of "learning curve." And then practicing with them in ways which aren't being taught today.

Interesting tidbit. One of the MMA guys challenged any/all other discipline martial arts Masters to a real fight. One Master accepted. The MMA guy took him out in 10 seconds (you can watch the U boob video of it). The reason is because the MMA guy FIGHTS and the other guy has a colored belt.

Cross contrast to today's method of teaching people how to shoot where students stand in a line, static, and learn to shoot at a paper target that isn't doing anything. That's fine if you want a colored belt or certificate to hang on your wall.

I disagree with this.

If you've ever trained in any real martial art like Brazilian jiu jitsu for example, you're not going to be fighting or competing your first day, and in some cases academies may not let you spar for months until you can demonstrate you have a solid understanding of the fundamentals. It also means you aren't going to just come in off the street and lose your $h!t on someone and become a spaz. Fundamentals are what EVERYTHING else builds off of moving forward in Brazilian jiu jitsu. If you don't have a solid understanding of, and cannot execute the fundamentals in jiu jitsu it will dramatically hinder your progress as you advance. It might not happen right away, but neglecting this will eventually come back to haunt you and dramatically limit your progress, and the further you move along without a solid foundation and fundamentals the more it will hold you back.

This is the same with shooting. How can you expect someone to be able to "run and gun" and shoot from any position there than standing static in front of a target if they cannot first master the fundamentals? You have to be able to actually grip and manipulate the weapon properly, present the weapon properly, fast and efficiently from the holster, line up your sights properly, and pull the trigger properly. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I personally think that you need to master these things FIRST (the fundamentals) before you start pretending you're an operator, running around and shooting while running or moving, from different positions, etc. You have to demonstrate that you are first safe and efficient with the fundamentals before you expect to advance to anything more than standing on a line in front of a paper target as you put it.

If you start off without mastering the fundaments and cannot shoot accurately and consistently from a standing, static position, and your presentation is sloppy, you're gripping the weapon incorrectly, you can't line up your sight picture fast and correctly, and/or you slap and yank on that trigger every time, the fact that you haven't mastered these fundamentals is going to be magnified exponentially once you start trying to do things from anything other than just standing static on a line and all you're going to do is reinforce and ingrain bad habits. And once these bad habits are ingrained they are MUCH harder to correct.

Everyone ones to be able to "run and gun" but most don't want to put in the time and practice it takes. Lots of time practicing your presentation from the holster, practicing pointing in, getting the perfect trigger press over and over and over until it's perfect and it's done without even thinking. Being able to clear malfunctions without thinking, etc. All that needs to be ingrained and donee without thinking about it before you can move forward, otherwise you're jsut reinforcing bad habits which will only become worse as you get into more advanced scenarios and situations where you're doing anything other than standing static.

[Robert1234]

I disagree with this.

If you've ever trained in any real martial art like Brazilian jiu jitsu for example, you're not going to be fighting or competing your first day, and in some cases academies may not let you spar for months until you can demonstrate you have a solid understanding of the fundamentals. It also means you aren't going to just come in off the street and lose your $h!t on someone and become a spaz. Fundamentals are what EVERYTHING else builds off of moving forward in Brazilian jiu jitsu. If you don't have a solid understanding of, and cannot execute the fundamentals in jiu jitsu it will dramatically hinder your progress as you advance. It might not happen right away, but neglecting this will eventually come back to haunt you and dramatically limit your progress, and the further you move along without a solid foundation and fundamentals the more it will hold you back.

This is the same with shooting. How can you expect someone to be able to "run and gun" and shoot from any position there than standing static in front of a target if they cannot first master the fundamentals? You have to be able to actually grip and manipulate the weapon properly, present the weapon properly, fast and efficiently from the holster, line up your sights properly, and pull the trigger properly. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I personally think that you need to master these things FIRST (the fundamentals) before you start pretending you're an operator, running around and shooting while running or moving, from different positions, etc. You have to demonstrate that you are first safe and efficient with the fundamentals before you expect to advance to anything more than standing on a line in front of a paper target as you put it.

If you start off without mastering the fundaments and cannot shoot accurately and consistently from a standing, static position, and your presentation is sloppy, you're gripping the weapon incorrectly, you can't line up your sight picture fast and correctly, and/or you slap and yank on that trigger every time, the fact that you haven't mastered these fundamentals is going to be magnified exponentially once you start trying to do things from anything other than just standing static on a line and all you're going to do is reinforce and ingrain bad habits. And once these bad habits are ingrained they are MUCH harder to correct.

Everyone ones to be able to "run and gun" but most don't want to put in the time and practice it takes. Lots of time practicing your presentation from the holster, practicing pointing in, getting the perfect trigger press over and over and over until it's perfect and it's done without even thinking. Being able to clear malfunctions without thinking, etc. All that needs to be ingrained and donee without thinking about it before you can move forward, otherwise you're jsut reinforcing bad habits which will only become worse as you get into more advanced scenarios and situations where you're doing anything other than standing static.

Why does everyone who doesn't participate in the gun games (USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, etc.) think that everyone who does participate in them is "running around pretending to be an operator"?

I can assure you we do not think we're "operators, operating operationally" when we're out there running our stages (operating?), we're just people challenging ourselves against others and ourselves.

I'd argue the cats dressed up in plate carriers, web gear, and battle belts taking classes in preparation for the urban conflict that's never going to happen (or maybe it will, who knows) are the ones "running around pretending to be operators".

Yeah I said it, taking training classes is more cosplay than any gun based competition ever will be. Gun game guys are running around in bright jerseys, shorts, and cleated shoes, appropriate for our game,, but not very tactical.

That said, I don't have a problem with training courses, or the people that take them (I've taken more than a few myself), just with those who want to cast aspersions on how others spend their time without realizing their own choice of recreation is more closely akin to said aspersion.

[crufflers]

I disagree with this.

If you've ever trained in any real martial art like Brazilian jiu jitsu for example, you're not going to be fighting or competing your first day, and in some cases academies may not let you spar for months until you can demonstrate you have a solid understanding of the fundamentals. It also means you aren't going to just come in off the street and lose your $h!t on someone and become a spaz. Fundamentals are what EVERYTHING else builds off of moving forward in Brazilian jiu jitsu. If you don't have a solid understanding of, and cannot execute the fundamentals in jiu jitsu it will dramatically hinder your progress as you advance.

Yeah, now someone is unpacking the MMA FUD? What a full-featured thread.

Those street fighter or MMA guy challenging a Ninjitsu master or whatever are pretty dated. Go to any decent school, even chains nowadays and there is some kind of BJJ and MMA aspect and options for training that. The days when The Gracies had to go around and show people what BJJ was are long over. A lot of those McDojo Vs. MMA video are fake or just super OLD like a 1911.

Yeah, there are still McDojo's where old ladies training Kenpo think their master can beat up anyone in the UFC. Stupidity and FUD and bad teachers are everywhere.

[crufflers]

^^^^

Those TKD or Kenpo or whatever teachers nowadays though... KNOW they cannot beat up a MMA champ (or a wrestler for that matter). They would never fight one especially in their dojo on camera. A pure MMA guy... and MMA actually has its nerdy tacticians who ARE NOT really "fighters" would probably not do great against a dirty scrappy mean street fighter. MMA has rules.

[Snoopy47]

I've just noticed regardless of which I play with, a Glock or a 1911 that in my efforts to be competitive I am about just as fast with either platform.

When I use one specifically for a long period of time and then switch back to the other one I have to practice out the previous manual of arms. When I switch from prolonged 1911 use to a Glock I find myself sweeping for a safety that isn't there.

So safeties or not, either design is just as safe in its inert stage. The difference is knowing your gun.

The margins of safety are razor thin on firearms. Yesterday I was doing run and gun stuff at my local club, and I got called out for finger placement while on the move. So in a match setting, safe handling has to be done in a very overt manner.

When one puts all the elements into the activity the actual shooting part of the sport is merely the part where the clock is stopped and where penalties are incurred at sub par marksmanship. The whole rest of the portion that creates time on the clock is movement (even if only standing still).

I personally can't make up my mind between a 1911 or Glock.

With both I can shoot Open
With both I can shoot Limited
With a 1911 I can shoot Single Stack
With a Glock I can shoot Production

***********
The scariest part of living in California is the thought that these arguments between 1911's or Glocks can become very real hard decisions to make in life when we finally get limited to the ownership of only one handgun just before they are outright banned altogether.

[crufflers]

I've just noticed regardless of which I play with, a Glock or a 1911 that in my efforts to be competitive I am about just as fast with either platform.

I personally can't make up my mind between a 1911 or Glock.

Do you feel like you needed that Timney trigger to get the Glock to where you need it? Just curious. If I did try a $$$ trigger rather than a $15 connector, this would be the one I get.

How much have you modded the 1911?

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Why does everyone who doesn't participate in the gun games (USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, etc.) think that everyone who does participate in them is "running around pretending to be an operator"?

I can assure you we do not think we're "operators, operating operationally" when we're out there running our stages (operating?), we're just people challenging ourselves against others and ourselves.

I'd argue the cats dressed up in plate carriers, web gear, and battle belts taking classes in preparation for the urban conflict that's never going to happen (or maybe it will, who knows) are the ones "running around pretending to be operators".

Yeah I said it, taking training classes is more cosplay than any gun based competition ever will be. Gun game guys are running around in bright jerseys, shorts, and cleated shoes, appropriate for our game,, but not very tactical.

That said, I don't have a problem with training courses, or the people that take them (I've taken more than a few myself), just with those who want to cast aspersions on how others spend their time without realizing their own choice of recreation is more closely akin to said aspersion.

To clarify, I wasn't talking about individuals who compete. I was talking about people who really have no clue what they are doing but want to immediately take all the classes and/or start mimicking what they might see on Youtube where people are on these cool looking courses, shooting from cover, from prone, from vehicles, moving from one obstacle, concealment or cover to another, etc., but haven't even learned the basics. The same people tend to trash courses that start from the beginning and drill the fundamentals first. These also tend to be the same people that will fail miserably when they do actually attend a class that emplahzises fundamentals, despite them telling everyone how great a shot they are and how they've been shooting all their lives. Shooting at cans and old TV sets from the back of a pickup truck doesn't cut it. I've been playing guitar for years, but that doesn't mean I'm actually any good at it.

But you must think very highly of yourself if you think I was specially calling you out or directing my response specifically or solely at you. I don't even know who you are, and I replied to (by actually quoting) someone else's post.

[Robert1234]

To clarify, I wasn't talking about individuals who compete. I was talking about people who really have no clue what they are doing but want to immediately take all the classes and/or start mimicking what they might see on Youtube where people are on these cool looking courses, shooting from cover, from prone, from vehicles, moving from one obstacle, concealment or cover to another, etc., but haven't even learned the basics. The same people tend to trash courses that start from the beginning and drill the fundamentals first. These also tend to be the same people that will fail miserably when they do actually attend a class that emplahzises fundamentals, despite them telling everyone how great a shot they are and how they've been shooting all their lives. Shooting at cans and old TV sets from the back of a pickup truck doesn't cut it. I've been playing guitar for years, but that doesn't mean I'm actually any good at it.

But you must think very highly of yourself if you think I was specially calling you out or directing my response specifically or solely at you. I don't even know who you are, and I replied to (by actually quoting) someone else's post.

Didn't think you were refering to me specifically, but you were referring to gun gamers, which was my point.

I know my limitations, and have no illusions of winning national championships, I do it for fun. And I applaud anybody with the guts to come to their first match, cause it is intimidating as hell knowing you're going to suck compared to almost everyone else there, but still putting yourself out there.