how does one shoot so fast??

[Mustard]

This is my "beef" with the competitive shooting sports. Sit down and strap in, its going to be a while.

First, lots of you are talking about developing muscle memory. I have news for you, it doesn't exist. Fine muscle control goes out the window in a real shooting situation, its documented. It will happen to most people. There is no amount of training - that can prepare you for that. That brings me to my second gripe about "tactical" shooting sports.

Tactical shooting sports place scoring hits on bad guys above EVERYTHING else. Unless you are a LEO, your only goal should be to extract yourself from a LIFE THREATENING situation. However, these stupid games, which were originally introduced to aid LEO's in training for lethal force encounters, teach you to not only walk into danger - but to run as fast as you can into dangerous situations.

Really? I just neutralized my immediate threat and I'm off looking to murder, yes murder, some more people. This is the part of the "game" that bothers the **** out of me.

A far better option for most people is to take a thorough CCW class. I'm not talking about the stand in one place and shoot type class, but one where you are challenged with realistic threats, like being attacked real time while having to draw and fire. Just how close can that attacker be to you before you should abandon trying to draw your gun and prepare to engage in had to hand combat?

Third, the shooting part is not that difficult. Most people show up with a ****ty grip. Once you fix that, they start getting hits on target. Most people can go from that to drawing and firing in less than 2 seconds in an afternoon. From there, it takes about another hour to explain and have them understand the flash sight picture and be able to put 2 rounds in a 9" paper plate at 21'. You can learn all the skills you need to prevail in a gun fight in one weekend. It's not rocket science.

Finally, the most important aspect of any self-defense scenario (which is the only time us civilians can use deadly force) is to have an idea when the use of deadly force is justified. (FWIW, I think this applies to everyone who keeps a gun for self-defense, not just those who have CCWs.) You don't get that training playing games. In my experience, most people don't know **** about self-defense law let alone what constitutes brandishing or that brandishing is a crime. What do you do after the shooting? Should you call the police? When? How should you deal with the police? What can you do to lawfully secure the scene before the police get there? What are your potential civil liabilities? Again, this goes hand in hand with my second criticism. Pulling a gun on someone is not a small matter. Shooting someone is serious business. If you decide to use deadly force in the wrong situation, you could lose your life, liberty and everything you hold dear.

So, if you want to play the games to play the games or to train for a part in a movie, awesome. However, shooting these competitions DOES NOT prepare you for a real life self-defense situation. It is not training for any "tactical situation" a civilian should be involved in. It is NOT a substitute for a true self-defense class, yet people want to treat it as though it is. That's fine. You are all adults. But you should recognize that those of you that think that playing these games is a substitute for proper training may make some of my colleagues practicing criminal law very rich.

This. I recently got back from taking advanced tactical handgun at Front Sight. The shoot house scenarios were very eye-opening from a "when the use of deadly force is justified". I could shoot every bad guy in the house and trade out 1 vs 1 with the instructors; but imo I failed every scenario because the best way to win the scenario was to not engage.

That said, competition is a solid place to learn how to shoot fast and accurate. Gun owners would do themselves a service by tempering their shooting skills honed in gaming with REGULAR practice in a training environment oriented towards CCW.

[ysr_racer]

Gee, you mean apples and oranges aren't the same? What's next, water is wet?

[SG29736]

If you want tactical training go get it. Competition is great for practicing gun handling, speed, accuracy,malfunctions, moving, shooting from different postions, all things that will help you use your tactical training. There is a reason top special forces outfits bring in world class competition shooters for training. I've seen lots of guys go to tactical training and then have nowhere to practice most of it until they go to another class next year. Going to multiple matches a month shooting stages with lots of different challenges is a lot better then standing in a lane with a target. But yes it's not learning to clear a building. All training is a compromise to an actual gun fight.

[Wordupmybrotha]

Hollywood magic. There's barely any recoil.

[cindynles]

Hollywood magic. There's barely any recoil.

Yep, magic. No way anyone could shoot that fast without the muzzle jumping all over the place. Look at the muzzle on my gun when I try to go fast, its all over the place.........

[broadside]

This is my "beef" with the competitive shooting sports. Sit down and strap in, its going to be a while.

blah blah blah

There is a reason that competitive shooting sports have rules. Its because they are a game and not intended to tactical training (any longer).

Unless you want to go to a combat zone or engage someone else with a gun shooting back at you for real how else do you learn target engagement and transitions, malfunctions, etc?

These games are a great way to build gross motor skills. You don't need fine motor skills to get a hit on target. An A-zone hit for the game, sure, but not for a defensive hit on target.

The more and more you do something the better you get at it. Do you think that DevGru folks are not a better shooter under pressure than the average grunt? They are and its because they practice a lot and many skills, both gross and fine, become second nature.

And these games are not about teaching people to chase down bad guys in your home. The movement and purposely engaging the next set of targets is to keep it entertaining and competitive and to test your abilities to plan a stage and then retain and execute that plan under time/pressure.

I have yet to meet a competitive shooter that has actually shot more than a few matches that thinks IDPA, USPSA, IPSC, etc are tactical training

[ysr_racer]

I took a five day class from Massad Ayoob, one of the things he said is, real life gun fights between non cops usually takes place at a few feet, and a few shots.

No movement, no reloads, no multiple engagements...

[ysr_racer]

Yep, magic. No way anyone could shoot that fast without the muzzle jumping all over the place. Look at the muzzle on my gun when I try to go fast, its all over the place.........

All A's?

[elSquid]

As a side issue, I shot a few USPSA matches in Revolver division and I can do sub-20 splits with my tuned 627 V-Comp and both 929s.

Big woop, I can do sub 20 second splits with my 627 too.

I can do that with my TC Contender.



-- Michael

[ysr_racer]

You guys know he's talking about .20 (point two) seconds, and I'm talking about 20 (twenty) seconds, right?

[9mmepiphany]

these blew my mind when I came across them...

It took me years of working with clients to break the habit of pinning the trigger to the rear, before i finally figured out what caused them to be so inefficient.

It is actually a two part explanation:
1. Part of it comes from rifle training (like Appleseed) where you are taught to pin the trigger to the rear until your sights return onto target
2. Another part is the belief that only releasing the trigger as far forward as the reset point means you should be able to feel and hear it.

Both of these techniques are the basis of inefficiency in fast and accurate handgun shooting

[elSquid]

You guys know he's talking about .20 (point two) seconds, and I'm talking about 20 (twenty) seconds, right?

You can't do fifth of a second splits with a single shot, break action Contender?



-- Michael

[ysr_racer]

It took me years of working with clients to break the habit of pinning the trigger to the rear, before i finally figured out what caused them to be so inefficient.

It is actually a two part explanation:
1. Part of it comes from rifle training (like Appleseed) where you are taught to pin the trigger to the rear until your sights return onto target
2. Another part is the belief that only releasing the trigger as far forward as the reset point means you should be able to feel and hear it.

Both of these techniques are the basis of inefficiency in fast and accurate handgun shooting

What does "pinning the trigger to the rear" mean? I've never heard that phrase.

[9mmepiphany]

What does "pinning the trigger to the rear" mean? I've never heard that phrase.

It is demonstrated in JJ's video

[JTROKS]

Seriously, I can do splits in under 20 seconds.