How to get more women, esp young single ones, to get CCWs?

[movie zombie]

it would seem to me that the major block to women ccw is the inability to obtain a permit from the local authority.

[BadKitty]

it would seem to me that the major block to women ccw is the inability to obtain a permit from the local authority.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the issue. Why are we talking about getting women to CCW when we can't CCW even if we wanted to???

BK

[masameet]

Because, I think, we need to. We women wield a lot of power with our purchasing decisions. Considering almost 100 years ago how the suffragette movement culminated in getting women the right to vote, why can't our generation of women bring about the notion that firearms are friendly toys deserving of our attention and respect?

Anyway here's another thought ...

Some months back I read portions of Paxton Quigley's "Armed And Female" (New York : E.P. Dutton, 1989). Most of her book centers on the need for women to arm themselves in response to the fear of rape. She cited how in some Florida communities, the local LEAs created women-only firearms training. The response by females there, 20-something years ago, was overwhelming and fostered successful but short-lived programs. Perhaps if our California LEAs were also to implement female-only firearms training, we would get more women into learning to shoot as both a sport and for self-defense as well as into buying guns.

[Paladin]

it would seem to me that the major block to women ccw is the inability to obtain a permit from the local authority.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the issue. Why are we talking about getting women to CCW when we can't CCW even if we wanted to???

BK

The answer is in the OP (bold added):

what can CGN/CGF do to make more women want to get a CCW and then actually get one and EDC (everyday carry)?

We want to be prepared so that when CA goes Shall Issue, CGN/CGF (and others) will be able to hit the ground running as far as outreach to women, esp the ones who don't visit forums like this, or never even owned a gun before.

Thoughts?

(In case you don't keep up w/CGN/CGF's 2nd A RKBA efforts, we expect to win Shall Issue in the federal courts within 2 years, maybe even in 1 year.)

ETA:

The first part is being worked on RIGHT NOW by Brandon ("wildhawker") and Gray Peterson ("Gray Peterson"). See: www.gotcarry.org and http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/f...play.php?f=116

The 2nd part we hope to win via federal lawsuits in 1 to 2 years.

ETA2:
Just last week, Monterey County went "virtual Shall Issue" (i.e., started accepting "personal protection" as Good Cause). See post #64 at: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=352771&page=2

So, going by CalCCW.com's out-of-date map posted on p. 1 of this thread, over 3/4ths of CA counties readily issue LTCs to Avg folk for self-defense or a little above. ("Avid shooter" who needs to protect several guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo as they travel to and from range/competitions and home). (Yolo and Solano also should be at least "light green" on that map.)

Things are steadily improving!

[Paladin]

Isn't this the LADIES forum?

So to try and introduce women to shooting some people decide that scaring the $#!| out of them is a good way? Especially random women that may happen onto this forum from web searches? So the first they see is dead women and missing women. HUmmmmm. long thought here, - are they going to say "fascinating!" and read more or as they are already fearful turn away and find something safer and that they can grasp?

I know just as many MEN that feel the same victim/police will protect me crap as being spew here just about women - how about the same thread in a 'male' group?

I doubt the women that are really that way are serious followers of Calguns, and those feeling afraid and having a less than a FMJ attitude are probably now running the other way.

Do people think before they post? or is it simply "we can FORCE AND SCARE people to believe what we want" - oh, but you are trying to appeal those that don't succumb to be forced and scared into actions, by, uhm, forcing and scaring them...

Again - does any one bother to think? Often while preaching to the choir, you drive new members away from the choir you are trying to build, and those are the the one's most in need to be reached out in SANE and reasonable fashion. Not - Own a gun or die! macho crap.

Doc, your comment is really pretty laughable. Seems like you set up a straw man just to get something off of your chest... Speaking of which: Are you a woman or man? If the latter, why don't you take your own advice and not post in my thread in this, the Lady's forum. I think that will work out the best for all involved since NONE of the (other?) women who've posted seem to have the problems w/this thread that you do.

If you read the OP it was to encourage our CGN female members to start thinking/discussing/debating how, once CA goes Shall Issue, can CGN/CGF/others effectively reach out to non-CGN females to let them know about CCWs (old term BTW, now we're switching to LTC (license to carry)). It was not an advertisement to the public.

If any random female inquiring about CCWs sees the OP and is so traumatized by it that she turns her back on the whole idea, there are, unfortunately, dozens of other things she'd see or hear on daily news that would turn her off.

And, BTW, if you can't tell, I did NOT post pics of "dead women." I posted pics of alive women: 2 of 4 whom were later killed, and another 2 who later went missing (with 1 being presumed dead).

[TheExpertish]

Amen.

So what should a women's specific or only firearms class include? Would a female instructor be required? Just curious because I'm going to get my cert to be an instructor and would love to tailor something to help fill this need.

[tacticalcity]

Amen.

So what should a women's specific or only firearms class include? Would a female instructor be required? Just curious because I'm going to get my cert to be an instructor and would love to tailor something to help fill this need.

Stone Cobra Tactical (they recently changed names to something else) tried offering women's classes several times. More than a few times they had to cancel the class because they could not get enough women to sign up to make it a go. Always a little heartbreaking to a class not go because of lack of interest from the target audience.

Every gun course I have taken had one or more women in it, and they did just fine. In fact, the women often out shined the men and they got along just fine with everyone. A lot of women show up a little intimidated to these courses, but after a the first few rounds are fired they warm up to it. They realize no one is judging them, and they are in the same boat as all the other students. Gender is not a big deal on the shooting range. So don't let that stop you from taking a course. You'll do great and everyone will be real happy you are there. The gun range during a shooting course is one of the most polite places you'll ever find yourself. Your fellow students and instructors are all very nice. Level I courses go slow. So you don't have to worry about being new or holding people up. They plan for that and expect it from all the students, regardless of gender or age. As you progress to more advanced classes you'll have more than enough skill level to keep up.

All that said, if you can find an all female shooting course...great! Take it. I just wouldn't let the presence of men in a class stop you from taking it. The more training you get the better you will be. Don't let somebody else stand in your way.

On a related note, somebody posted a link to an all women's fantasy camp called Bond Girl Bootcamp http://www.facebook.com/#!/bondgirlbootcamp. In addition to shooting they teach you how to fight (mma), how to drive a car like a stunt woman, fly a helicopter, drive a speed boat, burleque dancing, poker skills, and all kinds of other Bond Girl type stuff. There is a heavy emphasis on leaving there with the ability to defend yourself, but there is also a heavy dose of fullfilling your "spy" fantasy. They try and include a little bit of girlie stuff into each course in addition to the self defense stuff in order to offer a little bit of fun for everyone. Aside from the burlesque dancing, I was really envious that as a man I cannot attend (nobody wants to see me take my top off). I want to do all that really cool spy stuff.

There are a lot more practical shooting schools. I just thought I would mention one that goes to extremes to appeal to women...and makes their husbands really jealous that they can't attend with their wives.

[TheExpertish]

Bong Girl Bootcamp sounds like a blast. Maybe I should send the wife.

[nicki]

Keep focus simple, focus in on "Rape".

Women believe that "one in three" women will be raped in their lifetime.

Rape can effectively be a "death sentence". Most people would consider use of deadly force to stop a rape a reasonable use of force.

Wheter or not those stats are true doesn't matter, it is what women already believe.

If they haven't been raped, they probably know someone who has and they feel an emotional connection to their "sisters" so to speak.

We probably would have more success if we approach things from a overall personal safety rather than gun centric.

Our outreach has to have a "female trainers", someone whom women can relate to because if we are to reach women, we have to reach them emotionally.

The classes can't be exercises in intellectual discussion, that gets them just thinking and people who think and ponder, don't act.

We need the classes to reach their guts, the classes need to turn into workshops where the attendees share "horror stories". Those horror stories will get the attendees to open up their ears to our info because many will relate to those stories.

The real thing we need is to do is to shift "mindsets".

A person's mindset is their real "weapon", a gun is a "tool" and if someone doesn't have the right "mindset", then a gun is a useless tool.

Since we do have counties that will issue CCW permits, we should probably build our outreach model in those counties first and work out the bugs.

IMHO, Sacramento county should be targeted since Calguns got a defacto shall issue policy and whatever happens locally in Sacramento will catch the attention of the state legislature.

Positive effects of gun ownership in Sacramento will indirectly effect gun policies for the rest of the state.

Since 41 other states are shall issue, perhaps we can find other groups who have working models already.

Getting a CCW even in shall issue counties is a significant investment in time and money for most people.

For people who are not gunnies like us, getting a quality gun, competent training and the CCW permit is not cheap. Let's look at a breakdown.

1. Cost of gun, 400 to 1000.
2. Training, approx 100
3. CCW permit Approx 200
4. Holster, ammo, cleaning gear etc. ?

So, we are looking on average of 700 to 1000 dollars in costs. This of couse is just the basics. We are going to advocate ongoing training now, aren't we.

How much does a trip to the range cost? This is an ongoing expense and if you are going to carry, the once a year range trip IMHO is unacceptable.

We probably are not going to get many people who will get CCW permits, but what we can get is people to support "OTHERS" getting CCWs.

This is important because we have two court battles, the courts of law and the courts of public opinion.

For example, few people outside of us give much thought that in the US, on average most burglaries happen when people are not home.

In other countries, close to half the burglaries happen when people are home.

Many rapes happen in this situation as an after thought so to speak, but that doesn't do the victim any good.

Non gun owners benefit from gun owners because criminals don't know who is armed, so they plan their robberies when people are not home to avoid armed confrontation with "trigger happy home owners".

Nicki

[masameet]

... To a large extent, this is just venting -- I know a large number of women, esp young ones, choose to be naive & idealistic or foolish because they don't want to think about their daily vulnerability or how evil some men can be. But for the ones who may have a more level-head on their shoulders, what can CGN/CGF do to make more women want to get a CCW and then actually get one and EDC (everyday carry)?

We want to be prepared so that when CA goes Shall Issue, CGN/CGF (and others) will be able to hit the ground running as far as outreach to women, esp the ones who don't visit forums like this, or never even owned a gun before.

Thoughts?

(In case you don't keep up w/CGN/CGF's 2nd A RKBA efforts, we expect to win Shall Issue in the federal courts within 2 years, maybe even in 1 year.)

So, Paladin, you're asking us on behalf of CGN/CGF and still don't think our female POVs are valid?

Why not survey NRA instructors who have been teaching women to shoot? For instance, Bill Tidwell, AngelDecoys (Manteca Gun Club), pennysdad, et al.? Yes, they are all male but they've done the training. Why not ask them if women in their various women-only training classes did it because they wanted to learn a worthwhile skill or because they did it out of fear? Why not ask California NRA instructors to hand out CGN/CGF surveys to female firearms newbies before and after training?

Besides I do believe we women as a whole do not "choose to be naive & idealistic or foolish because [we] don't want to think about [our] daily vulnerability or how evil some men can be." Between the sexes, we women tend to be more trustful, ergo more naive and idealistic. That's all. As to being "foolish," everybody -- young and old -- could use a little seasoning with time and by learning from crappy experiences via the School of Hard Knocks and Lousy BFs/Husbands or GFs/Wives.

Current societal mores and gender expectations still foster to some degree the notion that the men in our lives will protect us. Like I wrote before, most of us women do not live in fear and most of us think bad things will and do happen to other people. That's not being naive, idealistic or foolish. It's just our mindset, the kind that has not been conditioned to fear and worry over what might happen. Because we have not been put in that position yet. If we look at the other side of the coin, men who are into guns as a fetish (a phrase I heard recently), who arm themselves to the teeth, stock up on ammo, armored vests, helmets, pants, shoes, etc., in the hopes that they'll have an armed confrontation, what's up with that? What do you call those kinds of guys? Paranoid, delusional, foolish, fearful, egoistic, egotistic, narcissistic, sociopathic, stubborn stupid, hoping for STHTF, TEOTWAWKI and Armageddon so they can kill zombies, cops and people they do not agree with and thus do not like?

Egad. You want us women to carry but where's the carrot? Merely holding up the stick for us to quake, worry and fear over (which is what your OP is all about) ain't gonna do it. And I can't say I've met that many women in my lifetime who enjoy feeling fearful. On the contrary, most women hate being afraid. They also just do not fantasize about killing somebody. Oh, at times we'll wish the worst on people we don't like. But that's just wishful thinking. As to living out shooting fantasies, that's what men do, and especially to us women they claim to love.

If all the thousands of women who died at the hands of their exes in the past few years had been armed, do you really believe they would have been able to save themselves? And if all the women and girls who were surprised, subdued and kidnapped, raped and then killed, like the young women pictured in your OP, had been armed, do you really believe that they would have been able to save themselves? Even cops, men and women who are trained to confront evil, get surprised and murdered too.

So what are your suggestions, Paladin? Why don't you put them out for us women to scrutinize, think about and discuss? And why not include outreach to mature women, who are just as likely to influence their daughters, granddaughters, young nieces and female friends as anyone else?

[masameet]

Women believe that "one in three" women will be raped in their lifetime.

Rape can effectively be a "death sentence". Most people would consider use of deadly force to stop a rape a reasonable use of force.

Wheter or not those stats are true doesn't matter, it is what women already believe.

If they haven't been raped, they probably know someone who has and they feel an emotional connection to their "sisters" so to speak ....

Nicki, women don't believe that "one in three" of us will be raped. That's what the statistics say.

According to RAINN, 44% of women who are raped are under the age of 18 years and 80% are under 30 years of age.

Every 2 minutes somebody is raped. In the U.S. that number averages out to about 213,000 rape victims per year.

The majority of rapes -- 60% -- are not reported to the police. That means 15 out of 16 rapists will not spend a day in jail or suffer any other consequence.

Approximately 67% of the rapes are done by persons known to the victim, with 38% of them being friends or acquaintances.

And what study has been done that shows female rape victims went out and bought a gun the day of or soon after the rape?

If 200,000 women are raped every year, why do we not have reports of 200,000 alleged rapists being shot dead every year as well?

Besides we women do not need firearms training that reaches us "emotionally." I do believe that nobody -- male or female -- can learn to shoot effectively using their feelings and emotions. What's the point of breath control after all? No, a good shooter learns to suspend emotional effects. And we women are capable of being great shooters simply because, unlike some men, we women can think and shoot without ego.

[AngelDecoys]

Frankly, I'm getting pretty sick of this.

Thoughts?

The club I belong to puts on free shooting classes for women every month. See link at my sig. A monthly class funded through the Friends of the NRA. So my first thought is what, if anything is your local range or club doing as community outreach? If you don't belong to a club, maybe its time to step up. Maybe its time to ask your local range if they have any programs and how you can help. The FNRA would fall over itself to fund it; just need someone to fill out the grant. If you belong to a club, maybe its time to start your own efforts at expanding the tent.

Which reminds me, we have a pistol 1 class starting up tonight at 6pm. Unarmed self defense started 22 minutes ago. I'm sitting here with 60 nice ladies, new to the shooting sports eager to get started. CCW will be discussed. While 60 tonight is a nice size for us, its really a fraction of what it should be considering the nearby population size.

[8bitnintendo]

Wow, so far I've learned from nicki that women are "emotional", and that CCW classes have to turn into some kind of horror story sobfest in order for us to get our silly ladybrains to realize we should own and carry firearms. I'm already a gun enthusiast, and I wouldn't want to chat over a beer with someone with that condescending mindset, let alone pay to take classes from one. My womanly intuition is apparently somewhat gifted at identifying contempt...

Here's a hint nicki: If you actually do want there to be more outreach to women and for more women to get excited about firearms in general and CCW in specific, you are not currently part of the solution.

[movie zombie]

If all the thousands of women who died at the hands of their exes in the past few years had been armed, do you really believe they would have been able to save themselves?

and therein lies a real problem: those women who did decide they weren't going to take any more, armed themselves, and defended themselves ended up being charged by a DA for premeditated murder and doing a lot of time in jail.

when a man murders his SO/spouse he does so in a fit of rage, temporary insanity, etc. but a woman that does so finds herself being viewed not as a victim but as an agressor.

unfortunately, the rules are not applied the same when women take up arms to defend themselves. it is difficult to get women to take self-defense seriously if said self-defense is then going to be used against them in a court of law.

personally, i think empowerment is the way to reach out to other women....not fear. how to feel confident after calling 911 for help; how to protect one's children, etc. once women understand that they are not helpless and do have tools at their disposal, most opt for some tools.

to advocate women illegally conceal carry is a bit risky, imo.....and something i read in this thread made me think that perhaps that was being suggested. perhaps i was wrong in that interpretation.

[IPSICK]

...personally, i think empowerment is the way to reach out to other women....not fear. how to feel confident after calling 911 for help; how to protect one's children, etc. once women understand that they are not helpless and do have tools at their disposal, most opt for some tools...

I don't think what you are saying applies to just women. This would be a good outreach plan to anyone who is not a gunowner but not ideologically against guns.

So far I've appreciated the feminine perspective in this discussion and I only hope we all (us men) understand the differences and don't impose what we assume the feminine perspective to be.