How to get more women, esp young single ones, to get CCWs?

[masameet]

[TheExpertish]

I agree with you in some areas, and in others I have severe reservations with your recommendations.

First, I don't think women need to be taught to identify who the bullies and creeps are. They tend to already know or be dating them to begin with. Dealing with them, sure. I agree with you most that women can be easily blackmailed emotionally. Even more so when the majority of women are abused and attacked by their boyfriend/husband.

Your Second Step is where things start to go downhill. I am all for women learning martial arts for self improvement. However, I do not agree with women taking martial arts with the intention of fending off attackers. Most martial arts are ill equipped to deal with someone close-in or who already has a hold of you. I know of women who were black belt Karate who were overpowered physically and mentally. Akido or Jujitsu are the exceptions, but are harder to master and utilize properly especially when under duress. I feel unless mastered properly, learning martial arts, tae bo, extreme yoga, and others give a FALSE sense of security.

Personally, I think the only practical self defense (unless you have a CCW) for a woman is grab the sides of his head, and push your thumbs into his eyes till you feel jelly.

Lastly, I personally see guns for self defense as a need. They may not be for everyone, but a need none the less. Especially in the hands of a capable shooter, and even more so if that person is qualified to have a CCW. I also feel that it is MUCH easier to train someone how to properly conceal and draw a firearm under duress. The muscle memory involved is straight forward, and does not involve active thinking like martial arts in countering moves. In a high stress/panic situation, your fine motor skills go out the window, but it is still easier to ham-fist a weapon and put it in someones ear. I know many cops that have been in officer involved shootings and say they found themselves confronted with a life threatening situation, and the next thing they knew the gun was smoking in their hands with 2-rounds fired. I also know cops that have gone hand-to-hand and get their asses handed to them. I know which route I'd rather go.

[sima09]

I think the best way to get the word out is simply to talk to your fellow female friends and take them to the range!

Second point I don't know if anyone has noticed but there are more and more crime/cop/csi type shows that feature women with weapons. (Ziva David from NCIS comes to mind) Also I tend to post pictures on my fb of my targets, groups, me shooting and it gets my friends to ask me to take them with me next time! I have taken 4 friends shooting this way.

IF CA was shall issue I would personally feel alot safer.

[DocSkinner]

Isn't this the LADIES forum?

So to try and introduce women to shooting some people decide that scaring the $#!| out of them is a good way? Especially random women that may happen onto this forum from web searches? So the first they see is dead women and missing women. HUmmmmm. long thought here, - are they going to say "fascinating!" and read more or as they are already fearful turn away and find something safer and that they can grasp?

I know just as many MEN that feel the same victim/police will protect me crap as being spew here just about women - how about the same thread in a 'male' group?

I doubt the women that are really that way are serious followers of Calguns, and those feeling afraid and having a less than a FMJ attitude are probably now running the other way.

Do people think before they post? or is it simply "we can FORCE AND SCARE people to believe what we want" - oh, but you are trying to appeal those that don't succumb to be forced and scared into actions, by, uhm, forcing and scaring them...

Again - does any one bother to think? Often while preaching to the choir, you drive new members away from the choir you are trying to build, and those are the the one's most in need to be reached out in SANE and reasonable fashion. Not - Own a gun or die! macho crap.

[masameet]

I agree with you in some areas, and in others I have severe reservations with your recommendations.

First, I don't think women need to be taught to identify who the bullies and creeps are. They tend to already know or be dating them to begin with. Dealing with them, sure. I agree with you most that women can be easily blackmailed emotionally. Even more so when the majority of women are abused and attacked by their boyfriend/husband.

Your Second Step is where things start to go downhill. I am all for women learning martial arts for self improvement. However, I do not agree with women taking martial arts with the intention of fending off attackers. Most martial arts are ill equipped to deal with someone close-in or who already has a hold of you. I know of women who were black belt Karate who were overpowered physically and mentally. Akido or Jujitsu are the exceptions, but are harder to master and utilize properly especially when under duress. I feel unless mastered properly, learning martial arts, tae bo, extreme yoga, and others give a FALSE sense of security.

Personally, I think the only practical self defense (unless you have a CCW) for a woman is grab the sides of his head, and push your thumbs into his eyes till you feel jelly.

Lastly, I personally see guns for self defense as a need. They may not be for everyone, but a need none the less. Especially in the hands of a capable shooter, and even more so if that person is qualified to have a CCW. I also feel that it is MUCH easier to train someone how to properly conceal and draw a firearm under duress. The muscle memory involved is straight forward, and does not involve active thinking like martial arts in countering moves. In a high stress/panic situation, your fine motor skills go out the window, but it is still easier to ham-fist a weapon and put it in someones ear. I know many cops that have been in officer involved shootings and say they found themselves confronted with a life threatening situation, and the next thing they knew the gun was smoking in their hands with 2-rounds fired. I also know cops that have gone hand-to-hand and get their asses handed to them. I know which route I'd rather go.

If guns truly are a need, why aren't women buying them like we buy sanitary napkins and tampons? We like to stock up, ya know, just in case.

And if a woman spends a few months or years developing her martial arts skills, it sure would seem foolish for her to fight her way out of a jam with a guy who outweighs her by 60 pounds or more. And if she did and got beat up, if not raped or worse, killed, why assume if she had been a guy the outcome would have been different?

Anyway I think once a woman finds out how powerful an elbow to a guy's chin or throat can be, she'll eventually find it a useful technique.

Why aren't women as fascinated with guns as men? I don't know. But I'll guess that most women don't feel threatened. Most of us don't expect to be victims of violent crime and many of us won't be. We live in a bubble of comfort, where fear and bad things happen to other people. And if something bad does happen, our husbands, BFs and the police are there to protect us.

Plus most women don't find potentially lethal hunks of metal, wood and plastic all that interesting. Diamond earrings, rings and bracelets? Oh, what a lovely surprise, honey!

* * * *

One of the commonalities of the women pictured in the OP is they're small and lightweight. I remember reading last year how serial killers like to prey on small women and girls because they're easier to subdue and carry away. Oops. Now you'll tell me I'm wrong to hype on bullies and creeps again and their tendencies to pick on smaller, vulnerable people.

[onequickshift]

And this is why I started carrying, was almost raped before. Also another reason I stopped modeling. To many creepers, stalkers, and other deviants...

As for not liking fire arms or bladed objects as much as a guy? Umm...thats wrong in my case. And I don't rely on others for my own protection, nor remain ignorant to that thought even entertained...

My brothers, my dad, all ex military, yet; and still, would not rely.
I have more toys than most guys, but than again, its for protection, and the recreational fun...

Martial Arts is fine, but most schools around focus formulated exercises, one would want to learn to hurt on a serious level, exploiting vulnerable spots of a human being, not just a man...

Like I said, I was almost the victim of rape myself, and the side work I did, left me the object of desire for ALLOT of dirt bags. Decided to make changes in life.

I personally don't really like jewelry, find them useless, like an over priced luxo car, for comfort or name, I rather have something I can drive hard...but eh. Anyways, night

[nicki]

Approaching women on this subject.

What we have here is a "failure to communicate" and we have that because the sexes are different.

Logically women should be heavily armed, but we are on planet earth, not Vulcan, as such earth women are "emotional".

Women generally are nuturing, they are caring and compassionate, as such, the idea of seriously injuring someone is something many can't imagine doing.

If you look at many self defense devices that are sold to women, the emphasis that they are not lethal, that they won't cause permamanent injury.

Guns cause alot of injury, especially the ones I would grab and use if in a life and death situation.

If we are going to get more women to consider CCW, we have to address their concerns about not only their personal safety, but their "CHILDREN".

Also, a gun is not the weapon, it is a tool. The real weapon is a person's mindset.

If someone is carrying a gun for self defense, but doesn't have the mindset to instinctly use the gun(tool) when it is needed, then carrying a gun could cause the gun carrier problems.

The reality is culturely women depended on men to protect them, but since many women are living without a man to protect them, many women are reevaluating the whole issue of guns.

Of course a problem for many women is the issue of children. Even though gun accidents with children are at an all time low, it is every mother's nightmare that their child would get injured or killed.

In the shall issue states, women account for about 20 percent of the ccw applicants.

I don't have answers to how we can increase this, perhaps we need to get creative, like have "tupperware" type parties, but instead of tupper ware, we have gun parties.

Nicki

[PlowboyBunny]

I know this wont help get more women to the range, but how about when you guys see a women there, you dont act like its unusual! Dont make a fuss about us being there and we will want to be there a lot more. Think about it, would you want a ton of ohs and ahs because of your gender while you were trying to work on your skills?

[TheExpertish]

Isn't this the LADIES forum?

So to try and introduce women to shooting some people decide that scaring the $#!| out of them is a good way? Especially random women that may happen onto this forum from web searches? So the first they see is dead women and missing women. HUmmmmm. long thought here, - are they going to say "fascinating!" and read more or as they are already fearful turn away and find something safer and that they can grasp?

I know just as many MEN that feel the same victim/police will protect me crap as being spew here just about women - how about the same thread in a 'male' group?

I doubt the women that are really that way are serious followers of Calguns, and those feeling afraid and having a less than a FMJ attitude are probably now running the other way.

Do people think before they post? or is it simply "we can FORCE AND SCARE people to believe what we want" - oh, but you are trying to appeal those that don't succumb to be forced and scared into actions, by, uhm, forcing and scaring them...

Again - does any one bother to think? Often while preaching to the choir, you drive new members away from the choir you are trying to build, and those are the the one's most in need to be reached out in SANE and reasonable fashion. Not - Own a gun or die! macho crap.

Now just because this is the ladies forum you're saying that guys have nothing useful to contribute?

The purpose of this thread is to have a constructive debate in regard to the matter at hand, not to be used as a recruiting tool.

Also, is it just me who fails to see the fire and brimstone fear mongering that you see? All I see are facts being stated and trying to present solutions to help protect women from crime. I certainly am not trying to scare someone into carrying a gun.

If guns truly are a need, why aren't women buying them like we buy sanitary napkins and tampons? We like to stock up, ya know, just in case.

And if a woman spends a few months or years developing her martial arts skills, it sure would seem foolish for her to fight her way out of a jam with a guy who outweighs her by 60 pounds or more. And if she did and got beat up, if not raped or worse, killed, why assume if she had been a guy the outcome would have been different?

Anyway I think once a woman finds out how powerful an elbow to a guy's chin or throat can be, she'll eventually find it a useful technique.

Why aren't women as fascinated with guns as men? I don't know. But I'll guess that most women don't feel threatened. Most of us don't expect to be victims of violent crime and many of us won't be. We live in a bubble of comfort, where fear and bad things happen to other people. And if something bad does happen, our husbands, BFs and the police are there to protect us.

Plus most women don't find potentially lethal hunks of metal, wood and plastic all that interesting. Diamond earrings, rings and bracelets? Oh, what a lovely surprise, honey!

* * * *

One of the commonalities of the women pictured in the OP is they're small and lightweight. I remember reading last year how serial killers like to prey on small women and girls because they're easier to subdue and carry away. Oops. Now you'll tell me I'm wrong to hype on bullies and creeps again and their tendencies to pick on smaller, vulnerable people.

Now just because something is a need doesn't mean everyone will make it a priority. I feel emergency kits and disaster preparedness is a need and I have my kits ready at all times. These kits could make the difference between life and death, but I know of only a handful of people who are prepared this way. Women don't buy guns like tampons because they like stopping bleeding, not the thought of causing it as nicki was saying, so to speak.

As far as fighting out of a jam, please lets face reality. God made men and women different for a reason. We all have eyes and took classes at some point that showed on average men are physically larger and stronger than women. Granted, size and strength are not the be-all-and-end-all, but the majority of the time it helps being the bigger stronger person.

In the police academy one of the best defensive tactics I was taught was the "Respect Nature" technique. I'm 6', 220 and in decent shape. However, if I am having issue with someone like my brother who is 6' 4" and weights 255, I'm going to seriously consider going one up to the next tool. For women, this is going to be the case nearly every time.

I agree an elbow to the chin or neck can be great techniques when employed properly. However, again, in a fight for life the fine motor skills go out the window. How many street fights have you seen on TV or in person where the guys are just swinging wildly and either missing or hitting with little force? While under duress your chances of using as small of a contact point like an elbow on a small target like a chin or neck (windpipe in reality) is small. Even smaller when to be executed properly these techniques require you to be on your feet and able to use your legs and hips to generate proper force. It's just not practical.

Okay, so why don't women like guns? Probably lots of reasons. For starters they're tools. Guys love tools. We're mechanical like that. Women don't love tools unless they're in their make-up kit. However, I don't think guns need to be interesting to get women interested. Women are smart enough to see the means to an end if you show them the A to B and the benefits.

I don't have answers to how we can increase this, perhaps we need to get creative, like have "tupperware" type parties, but instead of tupper ware, we have gun parties.

I like it.

[DocSkinner]

...
Also, is it just me who fails to see the fire and brimstone fear mongering that you see? All I see are facts being stated and trying to present solutions to help protect women from crime. I certainly am not trying to scare someone into carrying a gun.
...

Well, you are someone on here regularly, a gun enthusiast to start with, and someone that has went through a police academy.

Now imagine the:

"THESE THREE WOMEN ARE ALL DEAD OR MISSING BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T OWN A GUN!"

From the perspective of a 20 YO woman that grew up in a severe liberal (anti-gun), rose-colored glasses (it only happens to other people), society should protect me, self-defense is vigilantism, and I never read newspapers because it is too scary mentality?

It is a case of thinking about the audience you are trying to present to. Starting off with a "dead and/or missing" post isn't really going to get them to read on - its going to get them to tune out. I have turned 3 wives around (2 ex, 1 current) and it wasn't by throwing you could be next in the dead and/or missing column of the newspaper. It was by taking constructive steps toward encouraging thinking about self defense, and particularly now defending our children, and discussion of best means, and alternative means that they might be more comfortable with.
The point isn't to try and convert women that are already shooters and would love to get a CCW, but to try and help those that are now on the fence, or had something scare them, and now they are researching ways of defending themselves. So if they are already sensitized to attacks and fearful, starting posts like this one is not going to get them to read it, and not only that - but they will probably retreat away from the entire topic of self defense and go back into their bubble. What exactly do these three girls being dead or missing add to the question of "why don't more women apply for CCWs?" other than add sensationalism?

Sales is all about selling to your audience, not yourself, getting them interested not scared, and not by telling your audience they are screwed up, or just screwed if they don't buy what you are selling. Hitting them with a baseball bat is not usually going to make them then want to listen to you about how they could have prevented it.

[masameet]

Now just because this is the ladies forum you're saying that guys have nothing useful to contribute?

The purpose of this thread is to have a constructive debate in regard to the matter at hand, not to be used as a recruiting tool ....

Jason, we've had several threads in the Ladies forum where women CGNers have expressed a desire for females to voice their thoughts more than the guys to voice theirs. Even when the thread title says Ladies Only, we still get guys posting in them. Imagine that, in the Ladies Forum a plea for exclusivity ignored.

And furthermore, how can we women discuss something from a woman's POV when guys like you tell us we are wrong?

Anyway I'm going to say you're mistaken in thinking this thread is a debate. We women prefer to discuss or rather put our viewpoints across, not debate. We're sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions and hoping to connect with like-minded folk.

[masameet]

Asphodel throws a "tupperware" party every Second Saturday and it is a free event too. Other California clubs offer free or discounted firearms training as well.

Yes, firearms are tools. So what? Where's the beauty or practicality in a revolver, pistol or rifle when there is no interest in using or acquiring them?

Anyway the OP's question puts the cart before the horse, so to speak. Because the real question is, How do we get women to think of firearms training as a skill to have and hone?

I'm thinking it's a matter of societal indoctrination. (And I agree with DocSkinner that the message should be positive and not one based on fear. We really don't want scared women with guns. We want confident, responsible women with guns. From the little informal surveys I've done, I suspect many women are curious about guns and would like to shoot but cannot bring themselves to the next step: Going to pistol training or buying a gun.) So if we could get the CRPA and NRA to produce tv, movie and radio commercials that connect with the average woman on the rightness of owning a gun and how easy it is for us females to become proficient shooters, then more women will see shooting as a sport. And if the CRPA and NRA can also influence Hollywood or independents to produce movies that show women as responsible gun owners and not the usual Thelma & Louise or Sondra Locke out-to-avenge her and her sister's rape characters, that would be another step toward making guns more acceptable to women. Higher gun ownership by women would also follow. Local gun clubs and shooting ranges could also offer women-only firearms training and monthly Ladies Days/Nights. With more females owning guns, we'd have the clout to apply political pressure and get CCWs.

[TheExpertish]

Well, you are someone on here regularly, a gun enthusiast to start with, and someone that has went through a police academy.

Now imagine the:

"THESE THREE WOMEN ARE ALL DEAD OR MISSING BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T OWN A GUN!"

From the perspective of a 20 YO woman that grew up in a severe liberal (anti-gun), rose-colored glasses (it only happens to other people), society should protect me, self-defense is vigilantism, and I never read newspapers because it is too scary mentality?

It is a case of thinking about the audience you are trying to present to. Starting off with a "dead and/or missing" post isn't really going to get them to read on - its going to get them to tune out. I have turned 3 wives around (2 ex, 1 current) and it wasn't by throwing you could be next in the dead and/or missing column of the newspaper. It was by taking constructive steps toward encouraging thinking about self defense, and particularly now defending our children, and discussion of best means, and alternative means that they might be more comfortable with.
The point isn't to try and convert women that are already shooters and would love to get a CCW, but to try and help those that are now on the fence, or had something scare them, and now they are researching ways of defending themselves. So if they are already sensitized to attacks and fearful, starting posts like this one is not going to get them to read it, and not only that - but they will probably retreat away from the entire topic of self defense and go back into their bubble. What exactly do these three girls being dead or missing add to the question of "why don't more women apply for CCWs?" other than add sensationalism?

Sales is all about selling to your audience, not yourself, getting them interested not scared, and not by telling your audience they are screwed up, or just screwed if they don't buy what you are selling. Hitting them with a baseball bat is not usually going to make them then want to listen to you about how they could have prevented it.

Doc, for starters I didn't start this thread. Just giving my 2 cents. Again, the purpose of this thread from my understanding was to find ways to get female shooters to CCW. I completely get what you are trying to say, but I'm not trying to sell anyone here. This isn't the thread for that. Personally, I think the "final product" would and should get it's own thread and let this one slip into constructive oblivion. If you have a way to "sell it" then lets hear it.

I think the doom and gloom headlines are the purpose behind it, but do not and should not be the motivation used to get new female CCW'ers. It's simply what us "experienced" ones see that motivate us to try and cut down on these numbers. Not to mention OP stated they wanted thoughts specifically targeting women who DO NOT visit forums like these.

Jason, we've had several threads in the Ladies forum where women CGNers have expressed a desire for females to voice their thoughts more than the guys to voice theirs. Even when the thread title says Ladies Only, we still get guys posting in them. Imagine that, in the Ladies Forum a plea for exclusivity ignored.

And furthermore, how can we women discuss something from a woman's POV when guys like you tell us we are wrong?

Anyway I'm going to say you're mistaken in thinking this thread is a debate. We women prefer to discuss or rather put our viewpoints across, not debate. We're sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions and hoping to connect with like-minded folk.

I read the forum rules, and there is nothing here that states my opinion is not welcome other than you. If it did I would have butt out a long time ago. You didn't start this thread so I'm feeling no obligation to shut up now.

You are more than willing to discuss your opinion just as I have. However, this isn't about being right or wrong. I'm simply stating that in my experience and training the solution you offered has little practical usefulness. Does that mean you're totally wrong and that route should be ignored? No. I just feel people need to have all the information to make an informed decision.

As far as this being a debate; it is and should be. You gave your viewpoint, I gave mine, and there has continued to be a point and counter point. That's called a debate. I felt I need to speak up in regards to your suggestions because I felt they were outright dangerous and ignorant in my training and experience. This is not meant to be taken personally. If you are a master in martial arts and capable of defending yourself to the fullest sans gun, then more power to you. However, the WHOLE PURPOSE of this thread was to find ideas on getting more women to CCW.

I maintain my opinion that more women needed to get involved in shooting to begin with. This is the primary reason for me chiming in to begin with. Guys have alot they can contribute in this mission. This would hopefully lead to more CCW. I would love to hear opinions on how women would prefer to be introduced to firearms, and/or how you got started?

[masameet]

Thing is, Jason, you do not offer a solution in getting women, esp. young single ones, to get CCWs. You simply state they should.

Furthermore, I do not disagree with you regarding females engaging in martial arts combat. Like you said, women will be overpowered. And yet the few articles I've read said from a psychological standpoint, most women who fight their attackers also tend to heal than women who merely submit without protest. We women seem to have this awful ability to blame ourselves for being weak and unable to help ourselves. We are the weaker sex, but does that necessarily mean we are also weak-minded and weak-willed? Obviously not. But in spite of what has transpired in the past 100 years in the Western World, we are still mired in seemingly unshakeable societal and gender roles and expectations. Annie Oakley and current female shooting champions are still viewed as anomalies, because owning and shooting guns are still seen as masculine endeavors.

And if you did not hear the sarcasm in my writing regarding women and debate, oh well. lol

[TheExpertish]

Thing is, Jason, you do not offer a solution in getting women, esp. young single ones, to get CCWs. You simply state they should.

Furthermore, I do not disagree with you regarding females engaging in martial arts combat. Like you said, women will be overpowered. And yet the few articles I've read said from a psychological standpoint, most women who fight their attackers also tend to heal than women who merely submit without protest. We women seem to have this awful ability to blame ourselves for being weak and unable to help ourselves. We are the weaker sex, but does that necessarily mean we are also weak-minded and weak-willed? Obviously not. But in spite of what has transpired in the past 100 years in the Western World, we are still mired in seemingly unshakeable societal and gender roles and expectations. Annie Oakley and current female shooting champions are still viewed as anomalies, because owning and shooting guns are still seen as masculine endeavors.

And if you did not hear the sarcasm in my writing regarding women and debate, oh well. lol

Haha, sorry. Yeah, us men can be dense sometimes. Well at least it seems we are on the same page. By all means I do not think all women should CCW. But there are many women who are missing out. Even if CCW isn't practical or emotionally feasible there are other alternatives out there like the Taser C2. Annie Oakley and present day Jessie Abbate are personal hero's of mine, even as a guy. I think they're anomalies more so just because of a lack of prescence as opposed to an enforced gender bias. I know many wife's/girlfriend's who can and do out-shoot their male counterparts.

How can we get more involved in the sport of shooting at least? I think after that getting more to see CCW as a value will be higher. How did you get started in shooting?