When does the rapture take place?

[bountyhunter]

There are things one can prepare for, and things one cannot prepare for.

Regarding the tribulation, it says not to try to prepare nor to "premeditate" what you will say in those days because God will speak through you.

Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

[bountyhunter]

What's interesting about being "prepared" for the tribulation is that no one can possibly be adequately prepared for it.
We can prepare for earthquakes, invading armies and things of that nature but nobody can possibly be properly prepared for God pouring out His divine wrath on a Christ rejecting world.

Thank God that He doesn't appoint His children to His wrath.

Since Christ said specifically we do not need to "prepare" for the tribulation, how could we possibly incur His wrath for not doing so?

[bountyhunter]

Bounty Hunter, I agree with what you are saying, as well as other posts that say that when the "Rapture" occurs is not a "fatal" or false doctrine(in the Spiritual sense).
What concerns me, is that those who do nothing to physically prepare, thinking God will save them(or they won't be here), may end up beating on your door asking for help.

Maybe, but that's not how the script is written. According to the bible, there will be a disaster so huge that "the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give light."

Nuclear winter after a war between Israel and Russia? Massive asteroid crashes to earth? I don't know, but it will be worse than anything ever seen according to Christ's warning.

Then the anti christ will appear and say he is Jesus coming to take you to heaven. Those who do not heed Christ's warning about how we are to endure the tribulation and will be saved will follow the AC to their doom. Those who realize who he is and refuse to follow him will (again according to Christ) be called up, beaten and killed.

So I doubt the fools will be asking me for food, they will be happily following Satan to heaven believing he is Christ. The ones starving here on earth and suffering the tribulation will be the ones following Christ waiting for His return.

[bountyhunter]

Following a false Christ is completely/radically different than having a different view of eschatology.

A Christ rejecting world will follow a false savior, this happens all the time.

And it will happen again. The difference is that God sent Christ to earth to explain the end times in plain words and warn us not to follow false Christ's. Those who do will be the ones who are lost. God gives a lot of chances but eventually time will run out, the end will come and the ones who follow satan will be blotted out.

[Just Dave]

And it will happen again. The difference is that God sent Christ to earth to explain the end times in plain words and warn us not to follow false Christ's. Those who do will be the ones who are lost. God gives a lot of chances but eventually time will run out, the end will come and the ones who follow satan will be blotted out.

That has nothing to do with your prior comment and yes I agree with the above.
Whether a person has a post, pre or mid trib view doesn't bear on their eternity considering if they're already saved.

A pre-trib rapture is the only sound view I've found when you consider the whole council of God.

[RandyD]

The tribulation is an interesting subject. I have a partial understanding of it, but I believe I do not have a full enough understanding to fully explain the tribulation. Scripture contains a lot of information, but you also need an understanding of ancient Jewish customs. You need to understand the seven Jewish feasts and their order and meanings, and how some of them have manifested in events that have taken place since the birth of Jesus, and how some of them will be manifested in the future. You also need to have an understanding of ancient Jewish customs surrounding marriage.

You also need to understand how God uses the number seven as a cycle. He created the world in seven days. Our week is seven days. He has set forth a seven year cycle, and a seven times seven year cycle ending in a Jubilee year. It is interesting that if you use the lineage of Jesus that is set forth in the New Testament, starting with Adam, and add the ages of those in his lineage, and then add the 2000 years since Jesus was born, we are now near 6000 years. The Book of Revelation states the tribulation will be seven years, and at the end of the tribulation Jesus will reign for a millenium, 1000 years. I find it interesting that the old Testament records 4000 years of history, then we have 2000 years of history since Jesus’ birth and he will reign of 1000 years, all of this adds up to a 7000 year cycle. We are near the end of 6000 years of recorded Biblical history, which is when the tribulation will take place.

The word rapture is not in the Bible, but the aramaic word used in the original text, means to be caught up and taken away. The question of when will the rapture occur, is best understood using the Scriptures that state God’s children are not appointed to wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” There are other similar verses, but this one is the predominate verse, relied upon by those who believe God will impose his wrath or the tribulation upon his elect. This leads many to believe that the rapture will take place before the beginning of the tribulation.

[Just Dave]

The tribulation is an interesting subject. I have a partial understanding of it, but I believe I do not have a full enough understanding to fully explain the tribulation. Scripture contains a lot of information, but you also need an understanding of ancient Jewish customs. You need to understand the seven Jewish feasts and their order and meanings, and how some of them have manifested in events that have taken place since the birth of Jesus, and how some of them will be manifested in the future. You also need to have an understanding of ancient Jewish customs surrounding marriage.

You also need to understand how God uses the number seven as a cycle. He created the world in seven days. Our week is seven days. He has set forth a seven year cycle, and a seven times seven year cycle ending in a Jubilee year. It is interesting that if you use the lineage of Jesus that is set forth in the New Testament, starting with Adam, and add the ages of those in his lineage, and then add the 2000 years since Jesus was born, we are now near 6000 years. The Book of Revelation states the tribulation will be seven years, and at the end of the tribulation Jesus will reign for a millenium, 1000 years. I find it interesting that the old Testament records 4000 years of history, then we have 2000 years of history since Jesus’ birth and he will reign of 1000 years, all of this adds up to a 7000 year cycle. We are near the end of 6000 years of recorded Biblical history, which is when the tribulation will take place.

The word rapture is not in the Bible, but the aramaic word used in the original text, means to be caught up and taken away. The question of when will the rapture occur, is best understood using the Scriptures that state God’s children are not appointed to wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” There are other similar verses, but this one is the predominate verse, relied upon by those who believe God will impose his wrath or the tribulation upon his elect. This leads many to believe that the rapture will take place before the beginning of the tribulation.

Yes, the word in the original text is "harpazo" we get the word "rapture" from Latin.

I think that a lot of the debate in regards of the timing of this event comes from the belief that the church has replaced Israel, if you believe that the church has replaced Israel this would place the church squarely in the tribulation.

Another area of confusion is the mentioning of saints during the tribulation, some believe that these saints are part of the church as we know it today but
I have to disagree, the problem with this is the rejection that people will be saved during the tribulation and after the rapture. In the book of Revelation these saints lare not considered part of the church as well know it today, they will give their life to Christ, refuse to take the mark, become martyrs and make war with the Anti-Christ.
Some of these tribulation saints will survive and go on to live in the millennial kingdom.

Another area of confusion that I've observed is Matthew 24:40-41, A lot of people believe that this is the rapture but in the text Matthew uses the word "paralambano" where as harparzo means to be taken (snatched) violently paralambano means to come along side and carry off. These are clearly two separate events.

When you take into consideration the whole counsel of God (from Genesis to Revelation) you can't get around a pre-trib rapture.

[Sailormilan2]

Nuclear winter after a war between Israel and Russia? Massive asteroid crashes to earth? I don't know, but it will be worse than anything ever seen according to Christ's warning.
So I doubt the fools will be asking me for food, they will be happily following Satan to heaven believing he is Christ. The ones starving here on earth and suffering the tribulation will be the ones following Christ waiting for His return.

While I understand Joel 2:30 speaks of pillars of smoke is a column with a palm like spreading at the top, which is almost certainly speaking of nuclear war, there are other things to consider.
Many religions/churches teach, or speak of, a 7 year tribulation. Without referring to the specific verse, I will use Daniel. Daniel speaks of 1260 days(time, times, and dividing(part) of time which is 1260 days, which matches Revelation's 42 months. Which if one adds the 1290 days of Daniel, will come to a bit over 7 years. The 1335 days may just be an overlap of the 1290.
Others feel that the 1260 and 1290 are the same time period, just over lapped. My specific religion/church teaches that the "time of Trouble" will be short, and we need to do nothing to prepare. I'm not sure I can agree with that. Besides, I don't consider 7 years, or even 3 1/2 years, to be a "short" time.
I think things will get bad, certainly worse than they are today, especially in a financial way. Meaning, people will be short of everything including food. If one is not prepared, one can have extreme difficulty.................................and then it will get worse. At that point, we will be totally dependent upon God.................if we are still here.

[Sailormilan2]

Yes, the word in the original text is "harpazo" we get the word "rapture" from Latin.

I think that a lot of the debate in regards of the timing of this event comes from the belief that the church has replaced Israel, if you believe that the church has replaced Israel this would place the church squarely in the tribulation.

Another area of confusion is the mentioning of saints during the tribulation, some believe that these saints are part of the church as we know it today but
I have to disagree, the problem with this is the rejection that some people will be saved during the tribulation and after the rapture.

Another area of confusion that I've observed is Matthew 24:40-41, A lot of people believe that this is the rapture but in the text Matthew uses the word "paralambano" where as harparzo means to be taken (snatched) violently paralambano means to come along side and carry off. These are clearly two separate events.

When you take into consideration the whole counsel of God (from Genesis to Revelation) you can't get around a pre-trib rapture.

So, what you are saying is that there will be a "secret rapture", followed by a 2nd Coming in which every eye will see Him, and this occurs after the Great Tribulation and the events in the Heavens. Then He will get those left behind from the first "event", as stated in 2Thess. 4:17?

Just trying to understand.

[RandyD]

This is my understanding of how to explain the presence of Saints that are referenced in the Book of Revelation during the tribulation.

Whenever you look at a group of Christians, who are saved, you will find some walking with God and some backsliding. This is where the parable of the 10 virgins is applicable I believe those who are raptured will be those who remained faithful and were walking with God, and those who were left behind, are saved, but they were not prepared, even though they knew his arrival was pending.

[Sailormilan2]

This is my understanding of how to explain the presence of Saints that are referenced in the Book of Revelation during the tribulation.

Whenever you look at a group of Christians, who are saved, you will find some walking with God and some backsliding. This is where the parable of the 10 virgins is applicable I believe those who are raptured will be those who remained faithful and were walking with God, and those who were left behind, are saved, but they were not prepared, even though they knew his arrival was pending.

I've actually read an article, many years ago, that said that the "Saints" of Revelation had to be the Jews, since they were the only ones keeping all `0 commandments. Referring to Rev. 14:12.

[Just Dave]

So, what you are saying is that there will be a "secret rapture", followed by a 2nd Coming in which every eye will see Him, and this occurs after the Great Tribulation and the events in the Heavens. Then He will get those left behind from the first "event", as stated in 2Thess. 4:17?

Just trying to understand.

I wouldn't really call it secret, it's going to happen quickly at a time that only the Father knows. 1Thess 4:17 is the rapture taking place before the trib.
IIRC when He comes back a 2nd time He will gather His enemies and slay them with His word,(Revelation 19:11-21) then He sets up the millennia kingdom. those who remain will join Him in this kingdom for 1000 years.

This is my understanding of how to explain the presence of Saints that are referenced in the Book of Revelation during the tribulation.

Whenever you look at a group of Christians, who are saved, you will find some walking with God and some backsliding. This is where the parable of the 10 virgins is applicable I believe those who are raptured will be those who remained faithful and were walking with God, and those who were left behind, are saved, but they were not prepared, even though they knew his arrival was pending.

The parable of the 10 virgins is interesting, oil represents the Holy Spirit in the OT, one school of thought is that 5 were faking it, they all looked the same on the outside but only 5 were Spirit filled.
With this particular instance you would have to look at a Jewish wedding festival in the 1st century, the 10 virgins are not the bride of Christ, they're bridesmaids IIRC the bridegroom returns with his bride for a big celebration those without lit lamps were considered non-invites aka wedding crashers. So 5 went in while the wedding crashers were left out.

I've actually read an article, many years ago, that said that the "Saints" of Revelation had to be the Jews, since they were the only ones keeping all `0 commandments. Referring to Rev. 14:12.

The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel and called by God during this time for a special purpose, what that purpose is can only be speculated on at the moment.
The tribulation saints can not be numbered (Revelation 7:9-14) so you see there is a difference between the two.

[Sailormilan2]

I'm just curious, exactly where does it say in the OT that "oil" is the Holt Spirit, or refers to it.
I've been taught that all my life, but for the life of me I can't find where it "says" that.

Looking at the wording of the parable, I see that the 5 virgins refused to share their oil. I don't believe I can give my HS to anyone, it is not mine to give. Nor can I "share" it. I had this discussion with a man in my church, and he said that the very that they refused to give any proved it was the HS. Which I have difficult time with. The HS is not mine to "give away", though I may be able to share.
However, the 5 did not say they couldn't share, but that they refused. Different situations.

I know of people that use this parable as proof that we are not required to give up our carefully stored supplies in the time of trouble.

[Just Dave]

I'm just curious, exactly where does it say in the OT that "oil" is the Holt Spirit, or refers to it.
I've been taught that all my life, but for the life of me I can't find where it "says" that.
Here's an article that explains Holy Spirit types http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Holy%20Spirit/...oly_spirit.htm I generally don't use them on forums

Looking at the wording of the parable, I see that the 5 virgins refused to share their oil. I don't believe I can give my HS to anyone, it is not mine to give. Nor can I "share" it. I had this discussion with a man in my church, and he said that the very that they refused to give any proved it was the HS. Which I have difficult time with. The HS is not mine to "give away", though I may be able to share.
Exactly, you can't give the Holy Spirit only God can.

However, the 5 did not say they couldn't share, but that they refused. Different situations.
It's a parable they don't always line up exactly but the point is clear 5 were ready and 5 were not.

I know of people that use this parable as proof that we are not required to give up our carefully stored supplies in the time of trouble.

I put my response in bold, hopefully they will clarify a few things.
The Jewish wedding in the 1st century was a drawn out process from memory here's what I recall.

The bride and bridegroom would become betrothed, this would last about a year.
The bridegroom would leave his betrothed and prepare a place for them.
The bridegroom was expected to came back anytime with no notice so the bride had to be ready and watching for him.
When the bridegroom returned he would come for his bride and have the ceremony.
After the ceremony the bridegroom and bride along with with all those invited would go to the marriage feast, this is the part were the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 comes into play.
Those who the bridegroom did not know would be left out, those whom the bridegroom knew would come into the feast.

Jesus uses the parable of the 10 virgins to describe what it's going to be like during His second coming. Jesus is going to return with His bride (the church) those remaining on earth who gave their lives to Christ during the tribulation will join Christ at the marriage feast, these will be people that the Bridegroom (Jesus) knows.
Remember this is a parable that illustrates what it's going to be like at the 2nd coming and it serves as a warning for people who are going to go through that period.

[RandyD]

I do not have any specific Scripture that connects the Holy Spirit with oil, but that has been my understanding, and the understanding of others who I have spoken to about this.

My take on the the applicability of the parable of the 10 virgins are 5 were prepared and 5 were not, and those who were prepared could not do anything to prepare the other 5. Preparation is something that only you can do for yourself, it cannot be delegated.

As a personal note, I find God's porportion of 50% being left behind a serious concern. If God is only taking 50%, that means I need to be prepared.