When does the rapture take place?

[Just Dave]

Try reading what I actually posted, you seem to specialize in taking words out of context. If the "good Christians" were raptured away ahead of the tribulation, why would Christ bother to go into such detail warning His followers not to be tricked by the Anti Christ and listing all the things they will have to endure? Why would He say "those who endure (the tribulation) will be saved?"

According to you, they won't be here when the AC arrives since that occurs after the tribulation begins.

To answer your question: there is a very good reason it will happen in that sequence where Christ does not return until after the tribulation. God's elect, who WILL be left here during the tribulation, will be called up and tormented (some killed) by the followers of the AC. It is essential that they be here to speak against the AC to help save some from following him. It's written in plain words:



can you not understand this simple thing? If all the "good Christians" are whisked away, who would be left to do this? Who would God have to speak through? And Christ says clearly it WILL happen.

I have said what I have to say on the subject. I'm not here to convert anybody, just post the truth. Believe what you want. As noted, I am constantly astonished people don't understand such plain and simple language when Christ very clearly listed the things that will happen (the darkening of the sun, the abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place, etc) and after He lists all these things He says:

"Then you will see the Son of many coming."

A five year old would understand that means AFTER the things said before. It's so obvious, but clearly some people refuse to believe that because it's not what they want to hear.

I didn't say it, He did. I never posted a single thing that was not a direct quote of Christ.

Context.
The book of Revelation and Christ's warnings about the end times is specific to those who will be here during those times (though you can still find some application i.e. persecution for believers today).
People will be saved during the tribulation, after the church is taken out of the picture the salvation ministry of the Holy Spirit will continue.

[bountyhunter]

It is quite clear that people who are saved will not follow the Anti-Christ...

You have perfectly articulated the tool that Satan will use to take billions. Christ said specifically that even God's elect will be subject to being tricked by the anti Christ. But a whole generation is being primed for destruction with the "once saved, always saved" myth. Satan will feast on this at the time he comes back and the deceived people think Christ is here to "rapture" them away.

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

They believe that "being saved" makes them bulletproof. If so, why do so many of them believe that Christ is going to whisk them away before the tribulation when Christ's own words clearly say the exact opposite?

Being "saved" does not make a person immune from making stupid choices, and many will make the wrong choice.

Again I ask the simplest question of all: If Christ's followers/believers are not going to be here during the tribulation, why would Christ waste time giving His followers a detailed blue print of those times along with many warnings of how not to be deceived?

And if "being saved" makes one immune from Satan, then Christ would not need to take any steps to safeguard them.

Like I said, the information I posted is direct quotes and speaks for itself. But you do have to read it and understand it. I can't do that part.

[bountyhunter]

Context.
The book of Revelation and Christ's warnings about the end times is specific to those who will be here during those times

And the fact that Christ references God's elect proves they will be here and I have quoted the reason WHY they will (to stand against the AC).

This is proof that the so-called "rescue rapture" theory (Christ returning to scoop up His people before the trib) is clearly false, aside from the obvious proof I posted which is that Christ Himself says clearly He comes AFTER all the events that He lists. Quote provided.

This false doctrine:

Take His people out of here before pouring His wrath out onto this world? This makes perfect sense to me, a child of God, His bride, is not called to His wrath.

Is the setup for all who will follow the anti Christ because they believe the myth of the rescue rapture that will keep them from the tribulation.

The true Christ comes after the trib, Christ said so in plain words, and those who believe that God would never leave them here as He "poured out wrath" will be front row center in the parade following the AC. The end times is written, and we are required to endure it ( "those who endure will be saved").

Your statement:

People will be saved during the tribulation

is correct and adds proof to what I said. Without God's elect here during the trib to speak against the AC, who would save them? That is the whole reason we will be here (again, I posted exact quotes of Christ for this not my words).

[Just Dave]

You have perfectly articulated the tool that Satan will use to take billions. Christ said specifically that even God's elect will be subject to being tricked by the anti Christ. But a whole generation is being primed for destruction with the "once saved, always saved" myth. Satan will feast on this at the time he comes back and the deceived people think Christ is here to "rapture" them away.



They believe that "being saved" makes them bulletproof. If so, why do so many of them believe that Christ is going to whisk them away before the tribulation when Christ's own words clearly say the exact opposite?

Being "saved" does not make a person immune from making stupid choices, and many will make the wrong choice.

Again I ask the simplest question of all: If Christ's followers/believers are not going to be here during the tribulation, why would Christ waste time giving His followers a detailed blue print of those times along with many warnings of how not to be deceived?

And if "being saved" makes one immune from Satan, then Christ would not need to take any steps to safeguard them.

Like I said, the information I posted is direct quotes and speaks for itself. But you do have to read it and understand it. I can't do that part.

Jesus said if possible even the elect, in other words impossible. A strong delusion is going to come after the rapture, however not everyone is going to believe it, they will not take the mark and profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
They will be saved during the tribulation, they will be persecuted, they will make war with the Anti-Christ (who will prevail against them) and many will be killed but many will survive.

The gathering that you mentioned (Matt.24:31) is not the harpazo that takes place in 1 Thess 4:17, the word that Matthew uses in this verse is "episynagō"

We are talking about 2 different events.
I'm talking (thread subject) harpazo (rapture) that takes place before the trib.

You're talking about episynagō which is the gathering of the tribulation saints at the second coming.

BTW Matthew uses the word harpazo a half dozen times in his gospel IIRC that last time he uses it is in chp 11.

[Just Dave]

Episynagō should not to be confused with paralambanō in Matthew 24:40-41

Harpazo, episynagō and paralambanō are 3 different words used in the Greek to describe 3 different things.

Harpazo is a very quick (violent) snatching away, as if someone were standing on a street corner and a van pulled up, the side door opened the person standing was grabbed and taken away.

Episynagō is a gathering of an assembly "OK everyone gather around" as if a meeting were being held. These are tribulation saints (elect) who gave their lives to Christ and survived the events during the trib being gathered by Christ at His second coming.

Paralambanō this means to be taken away but it's not quick or abrupt, it's more like you are eating a burrito and a LEO taps on your shoulder, identifies you and places you under arrest (perp walk?). In Matthew 25:40-41 these people are being taken away to face Christ but not in a good way, they are being carted off to judgement.

[bountyhunter]

Jesus said if possible even the elect, in other words impossible.

That is an absolute non sequitur, that conclusion can not follow. Christ was warning that even the elect will be tempted by the anti Christ and that is the reason He gives the warnings He gave in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. If anything, it reflects the fact that Christ does not know for certain if all of the elect will be able to resist following the anti Christ.

We are talking about 2 different events.

Speak for yourself, I am talking about exactly one thing which is the end of days and what happens then. I am not getting into a semantic debate on what the word "rapture" means, I am saying very clearly what will happen at that time. Or, to be more accurate, I am simply restating what Christ said will happen (I take no credit for the information). You can call it anything you want. The equivocation of the meaning of the word "rapture" is one of the tools of confusion, and we know who is the master of confusion.

Christ never said rapture, He just clearly stated what would happen and warned not to be fooled by the liar who will come first or the liars who will be his agents. The "prince of peace" who will come to save the world in the midst of the horrific tribulation will be Satan. Period. Could not be clearer. As to who follows him and who gets saved, time will tell.

Christ will come eventually after the tribulation runs it's course, and as Christ said:

Those who endure will be saved.


The whole core problem here is that the word "rapture" is being used to make people believe that God will scoop them up and spare them the tribulation. That is the OPPOSITE of what Christ said as I have posted. Just read Mark 13 and Matt 24.

[bountyhunter]

I'm talking (thread subject) harpazo (rapture) that takes place before the trib.

And I am saying that Christ clearly says there is no such thing. No "rapture" before the tribulation. It is a myth, and in fact it is the myth that is the lynchpin of Satan's plan to get half the world to worship him.

And they will.

Because they believe somebody is coming to save them from the trib and they will follow the first being who shows supernatural abilities and they will forget (or they never learned) that Christ said that the one who will be first is the abomination of desolation. And because they fail to understand that, they will follow him.

From second Thessalonians:

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, do not become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Could not be clearer.

[The War Wagon]

Amillennial.

The LCMS holds with the teaching of the Lutheran fathers, early Church fathers, & the Apostolic fathers, and rejects chiliasm of every kind.

[Cali-Glock]

Is the Rapture Pre-Trib, Post-trib, mid -trib...

Yes.

[Sailormilan2]

And I am saying that Christ clearly says there is no such thing. No "rapture" before the tribulation. It is a myth, and in fact it is the myth that is the lynchpin of Satan's plan to get half the world to worship him.

And they will.

Because they believe somebody is coming to save them from the trib and they will follow the first being who shows supernatural abilities and they will forget (or they never learned) that Christ said that the one who will be first is the abomination of desolation. And because they fail to understand that, they will follow him.

From second Thessalonians:



Could not be clearer.

I agree.
I recently read a book that was recommended to me, or should I say I attempted to read the book, titled ESCAPING THE MARK OF THE BEAST . I got about 1/3 the way through it and gave up. He is a "rapturist" and into numerology. He quoted from Revelation, Isaiah, Luke, and Thessalonians, and completely ignored Matthew 24.
He tried to take the "falling away" of 2 Thess.2:3 as escaping from the earth, and until that happens the man of sin can't be revealed.
When I look up the Greek words for "falling away" I can't see how anyone can read them as "escaping".
He also tries to say that Isaiah 6 means that the prophet Isaiah will return to prophecy here on Earth. Yet I was under the impression that Moses and Elijah would return, that is what the Jews got from their studies of the scripture.

[RAMCLAP]

No where does it state that Moses and Elijah will return. It says the two witnesses would be killed for a while and then would be raised up again to witness for God. We non-dispensationalists understand that the church at Rome buried the Bible and began other teachings. They killed the bible for a time. Then Guttenberg and his printing press, along with Luther and the Reformers brought the two witnesses back to life. The Old Testment, and the New Testament. The two Witnesses that give the testimony of God.

[Not a Cook]

No where does it state that Moses and Elijah will return. It says the two witnesses would be killed for a while and then would be raised up again to witness for God. We non-dispensationalists understand that the church at Rome buried the Bible and began other teachings. They killed the bible for a time. Then Guttenberg and his printing press, along with Luther and the Reformers brought the two witnesses back to life. The Old Testament, and the New Testament. The two Witnesses that give the testimony of God.

RAMCLAP - the phraseology of the above post might lead some readers to believe that all non-dispensationalists hold the same (or similar) eschatological views as you describe, so I'd like to clarify.

Many, many folks who are not dispensationalists (such as myself) expect a future, literal fulfillment of the as-yet-unfulfilled prophecies (e.g. two literal witnesses literally appearing in Jerusalem during the grew tribulation and literally preaching for three years before getting murdered and then being resurrected as described in Revelation - albeit, I do not personally expect Moses to be one of them.)

[RAMCLAP]

I understand. Just pointing out that there are other views. I have found that most non-Christians I meet think we are all into the "Left Behind" scenario.

[bountyhunter]

I agree.
I recently read a book that was recommended to me, or should I say I attempted to read the book, titled ESCAPING THE MARK OF THE BEAST . I got about 1/3 the way through it and gave up. He is a "rapturist" and into numerology. He quoted from Revelation, Isaiah, Luke, and Thessalonians, and completely ignored Matthew 24.
He tried to take the "falling away" of 2 Thess.2:3 as escaping from the earth, and until that happens the man of sin can't be revealed.
When I look up the Greek words for "falling away" I can't see how anyone can read them as "escaping".
He also tries to say that Isaiah 6 means that the prophet Isaiah will return to prophecy here on Earth. Yet I was under the impression that Moses and Elijah would return, that is what the Jews got from their studies of the scripture.

Not sure about Moses and Elijah, but I have heard people say it. But for the sequence of who comes first and when the tribulation occurs, it's clear. For a while, it was really bothering me that so many people who appear to believe they are Christians read the bible and simply don't get it when the stements are so clear and they are directly from Christ (not some OT text that can be misinterpreted because of language nuance).

It's like holding up an apple and having somebody look at it and keep saying: "Yep... that's an orange."

But maybe it is part of the plan that many people now will simply be blind to the truth. At any rate, they can read it in Mark 13 and Matt 24 and if they don't get it..... well, the anti Christ is going to have a lot of worshippers when he gets here. And that is exactly what was predicted so I guess that's why it will happen.

[bountyhunter]

I understand. Just pointing out that there are other views. I have found that most non-Christians I meet think we are all into the "Left Behind" scenario.

That's because it's getting so much media play.