When does the rapture take place?

[waveslayer]

I'm just curious, exactly where does it say in the OT that "oil" is the Holt Spirit, or refers to it.
I've been taught that all my life, but for the life of me I can't find where it "says" that.

Looking at the wording of the parable, I see that the 5 virgins refused to share their oil. I don't believe I can give my HS to anyone, it is not mine to give. Nor can I "share" it. I had this discussion with a man in my church, and he said that the very that they refused to give any proved it was the HS. Which I have difficult time with. The HS is not mine to "give away", though I may be able to share.
However, the 5 did not say they couldn't share, but that they refused. Different situations.

I know of people that use this parable as proof that we are not required to give up our carefully stored supplies in the time of trouble.

I agree. the oil does not represent the Holy Spirit. it is a Parable of being prepared when you have been told, or warned that the bridegroom or Jesus will be returning. either you prepare or you don't. which is a very quick answer . don't want to type too much. [emoji12]

[bountyhunter]

That has nothing to do with your prior comment and yes I agree with the above.
Whether a person has a post, pre or mid trib view doesn't bear on their eternity considering if they're already saved.

That is a completely different topic to discuss, but for the record: I do not believe that anyone is irrevocably saved. Salvation is a gift from God which we do not earn... but like any gift, it can be thrown away. S, I think it is critically important that people understand the sequence.

It was Christ's own analogy that His sheep know His voice and will follow Him...... but there will be many fooled into following satan. And when Christ does return, the fools will not even be there to be taken away with the true Christ. As in the parable of the wedding night: when the groom came and took the brides in who had stayed for Him, the ones who had wandered off were out of luck. So it will be in the end times for those who follow the anti christ (Satan).

And no, I don't think it is going to matter if they had previously been through some ceremony where a preacher declared them "saved". Their actions will declare they did not understand or follow Christ's teachings and as Christ warned He will just say:

Go away. I never knew you.

It's easy for anybody to claim they are "saved" but actions speak louder than words.

[bountyhunter]

Another passage often misquoted to claim pre trib rapture (Matthew 24):

That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

This is the basis of the "left behind" myth where the good people will magically vanish as they are beamed up to heaven.

It actually means, as said in previous text, families will be torn apart as some of the people follow after satan and some refuse and stay behind. Mark 13:

[bountyhunter]

While I understand Joel 2:30 speaks of pillars of smoke is a column with a palm like spreading at the top, which is almost certainly speaking of nuclear war, there are other things to consider.
Many religions/churches teach, or speak of, a 7 year tribulation. Without referring to the specific verse, I will use Daniel. Daniel speaks of 1260 days(time, times, and dividing(part) of time which is 1260 days, which matches Revelation's 42 months. Which if one adds the 1290 days of Daniel, will come to a bit over 7 years. The 1335 days may just be an overlap of the 1290.
Others feel that the 1260 and 1290 are the same time period, just over lapped. My specific religion/church teaches that the "time of Trouble" will be short, and we need to do nothing to prepare. I'm not sure I can agree with that. Besides, I don't consider 7 years, or even 3 1/2 years, to be a "short" time.
I think things will get bad, certainly worse than they are today, especially in a financial way. Meaning, people will be short of everything including food. If one is not prepared, one can have extreme difficulty.................................and then it will get worse. At that point, we will be totally dependent upon God.................if we are still here.

Yes, I realize that there are OT references to the 1260 days but again, I go back to the words of Christ:

direct quote:

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

The most interesting thing is that Christ speaks of the events AS IF THEY HAVE HAPPENED (in the past tense). Or, at least, that there is a firm written script which events must follow and God changed it knowing that His elect could not survive the tribulation as written.

At any rate, Christ has said that God will shorten the days... to what, I don't know.

[bountyhunter]

My take on the the applicability of the parable of the 10 virgins are 5 were prepared and 5 were not, and those who were prepared could not do anything to prepare the other 5.

"Preparation" simply boils down to belief and understanding. The former, you can not really give to an unwilling person, the latter maybe you can. The point is there really is nothing we can do to alter what is going to occur, other than our behavior when it does happen.

Satan is going to walk in as the prince of peace amid chaos...... and he will do great signs and wonders and "help" people. he will also set up the one world order which he commands and those who recognize him for satan and refuse to worship him will be tortured and killed:


Matt 24: I don't know what we are supposed to do to "prepare". Stockpile food and ammo, but it likely won't matter when AC's forces come for you. Just keep the faith and don't worship satan.

[Just Dave]

That is a completely different topic to discuss, but for the record: I do not believe that anyone is irrevocably saved. Salvation is a gift from God which we do not earn... but like any gift, it can be thrown away. S, I think it is critically important that people understand the sequence.

It was Christ's own analogy that His sheep know His voice and will follow Him...... but there will be many fooled into following satan. And when Christ does return, the fools will not even be there to be taken away with the true Christ. As in the parable of the wedding night: when the groom came and took the brides in who had stayed for Him, the ones who had wandered off were out of luck. So it will be in the end times for those who follow the anti christ (Satan).
Yes, those who belong to Christ know His voice (John 10) but people who don't know or care to know Christ will follow any world leader who isn't of Christ, you can actually see this being played out in the world today.
By rejecting Christ they've already set themselves up to follow the Anti-Christ.

One matter of disagreement with your point, the church is depicted as the bride of Christ, not brides. The ten virgins in Matthew 25 are people who will be alive when Christ returns with His bride after the tribulation, 5 were believers knowing that Christ was coming the other 5 were non-believers
To understand it you would have to take a close look at the process of a 1st century Jewish wedding.


And no, I don't think it is going to matter if they had previously been through some ceremony where a preacher declared them "saved". Their actions will declare they did not understand or follow Christ's teachings and as Christ warned He will just say:

Go away. I never knew you.

It's easy for anybody to claim they are "saved" but actions speak louder than words.
Yup, just like the 5 virgins who didn't trim their lamps, they were hanging out with those who did but their actions showed them to be different.
While one group of 5 was waiting and ready for Christ's return the other 5 were just playing a part.

Regarding the issue of salvation Jesus knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't belong to Him.
In the parable of the 10 virgins they all looked alike at a glance. There were 10, they were virgins, they hung out together and carried lamps.
They more than likely dressed the same and they all claimed to be part of the wedding party.
Like those false teachers in Matthew 7 five looked the part but they never knew the Savior.

[Sailormilan2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
The word rapture is not in the Bible/// The question of when will the rapture occur, is best understood using the Scriptures that state God’s children are not appointed to wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” There are other similar verses, but this one is the predominate verse, relied upon by those who believe God will impose his wrath or the tribulation upon his elect. This leads many to believe that the rapture will take place before the beginning of the tribulation.
Another passage often misquoted to claim pre trib rapture (Matthew 24):

Quote:
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
This is the basis of the "left behind" myth where the good people will magically vanish as they are beamed up to heaven.

It actually means, as said in previous text, families will be torn apart as some of the people follow after satan and some refuse and stay behind. Mark 13:

Quote:
12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.



I agree with what bountyhunter says. It refers to families being torn apart. Going back to Matthew 24, you will find the verse says(accoring to the KJV), "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Matt.24:40
The word "THEN" refers to a specific previous incident or action. Which from my reading is Matt.24:30. "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." The "THEN" of that verse refers to a previous action or incident. More than likely the setting up of the "Abomination".

Everything between Matt.24:30 and Matt.24:40 is just extra detail. But, once Christ comes, then one will be taken, and one left behind.

Similarly, the "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." (Matt.24:16-18) refers to a specific previous incident or action. Which is in the previous verse, Matt.24:15. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand" The "THEN" of v. 16 refers back to the action of v.15 The setting up of the "Abomination". An event which has not yet happened, if you read the description of the the "Abomination" in Daniel.

Each "Then" spoke of by Christ is building on a previous action or incident. It's a progression.

[MotoriousRacing]

What is this 'rapture' and where do I go to learn about it?

[Just Dave]

What is this 'rapture' and where do I go to learn about it?

It's a biblical doctrine that the church will be taken away to be with Jesus at an appointed time.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians+4&version=NKJV

[b]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There's no denying that this event is going to happen the debate is when it's going to happen.
Some believe it will happen before the tribulation, some believe during and some after.

The term "caught up" in verse 17 is the Greek word Harpazo we use the English word rapture which comes from Latin rapio

[bountyhunter]

Regarding the issue of salvation Jesus knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't belong to Him.

Of course He does. I doubt He will think someone "belongs to Him" if they followed the anti Christ off in direct contradiction to Christ's warnings not to be fooled.

I'm not saying such a thing is unforgivable, I'm saying it would be better to follow what He says. That is to know that "the abomination of desolation" will stand in the holy place first (as Christ said) a terrible tribulation will happen (as Christ said) and liars will come claiming to be Christ (as He said) and only then, after these things have happened, will you see the coming of the Son of man.

It is written as clear as could be: How can this not be understood?

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ////////// those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.


“But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

It says "following that distress". Amazing that this subject is disputed, but it appears that it must be so. IMHO, the false doctrine of "rescue rapture" is the tool by which the Anti Christ will get people to follow him when he returns to earth during the tribulation.

[bountyhunter]

It's a biblical doctrine that the church will be taken away to be with Jesus at an appointed time.

I'm not sure "rapture" is biblical as that word does not appear in the bible. One of the words attributed to rapture translates to something like "snatched away". The confusion around the meaning of the word is being exploited: the peddler of false doctrine who claims that the good Christians will be "raptured" say it will happen before the trib, so by usage, rapture has come to mean when they are "beamed up" to heaven to rescue them from the tribulation. It is the basis of a book titled "Left Behind" and the premise is that the good people won't be here and the bad people will be left behind to suffer the trib. That is false doctrine in direct contradiction to Christ's words.

There is no question Christ is returning at the appointed time, what astonishes me is how people can believe that they will be "snatched away to haven" before the tribulation when Christ spoke at length about the tribulation, warned what would come and said that the duration of that time would be reduced to spare God's elect. If God's elect and the "good Christians" were snatched away before the trib, why would Christ bother?

I think the text about how we will meet Christ in the clouds means when He returns we will all be released from flesh and put into our spirit bodies. It will be the start of the millenium where Christ and His elect (who stood against the anti Christ in the tribulation) will preach the gospel and convert all who hear it. After the end of the millenium, Satan is again released and the final battle occurs where he (and all the fools who follow him) are put into the lake of fire and blotted out permanently.

[Just Dave]

I'm not sure "rapture" is biblical as that word does not appear in the bible. One of the words attributed to rapture translates to something like "snatched away". The confusion around the meaning of the word is being exploited: the peddler of false doctrine who claims that the good Christians will be "raptured" say it will happen before the trib, so by usage, rapture has come to mean when they are "beamed up" to heaven to rescue them from the tribulation. It is the basis of a book titled "Left Behind" and the premise is that the good people won't be here and the bad people will be left behind to suffer the trib. That is false doctrine in direct contradiction to Christ's words.

There is no question Christ is returning at the appointed time, what astonishes me is how people can believe that they will be "snatched away to haven" before the tribulation when Christ spoke at length about the tribulation, warned what would come and said that the duration of that time would be reduced to spare God's elect. If God's elect and the "good Christians" were snatched away before the trib, why would Christ bother?

I think the text about how we will meet Christ in the clouds means when He returns we will all be released from flesh and put into our spirit bodies. It will be the start of the millenium where Christ and His elect (who stood against the anti Christ in the tribulation) will preach the gospel and convert all who hear it. After the end of the millenium, Satan is again released and the final battle occurs where he (and all the fools who follow him) are put into the lake of fire and blotted out permanently.

If you go back and read the last few pages of this thread the Greek word in the text "harpazo" is clearly explain with definitions.

I don't know too much about the book "Left Behind" because I've never read it.

If God's elect and the "good Christians" were snatched away before the trib, why would Christ bother?

Why would Christ bother to...? Take His people out of here before pouring His wrath out onto this world? This makes perfect sense to me, a child of God, His bride, is not called to His wrath.
I also don't see the difference between God's elect and "good (devote?) Christians", perhaps this is for another thread.

I think you are missing the fact that people will be saved during the trib, most of them will be killed because of this ether through persecution or during a war against the anti-christ. A lot of these believers and non-believers alike will survive the trib, in Rev 19:19-20 you can see what Jesus does with the non-believers.

[Just Dave]

Of course He does. I doubt He will think someone "belongs to Him" if they followed the anti Christ off in direct contradiction to Christ's warnings not to be fooled.

I'm not saying such a thing is unforgivable, I'm saying it would be better to follow what He says. That is to know that "the abomination of desolation" will stand in the holy place first (as Christ said) a terrible tribulation will happen (as Christ said) and liars will come claiming to be Christ (as He said) and only then, after these things have happened, will you see the coming of the Son of man.

It is written as clear as could be: How can this not be understood?



It says "following that distress". Amazing that this subject is disputed, but it appears that it must be so. IMHO, the false doctrine of "rescue rapture" is the tool by which the Anti Christ will get people to follow him when he returns to earth during the tribulation.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with this post, how do followers of Christ follow the Anti-Christ? That's like traveling east and west at the same time.
Your post doesn't make sense.

Like I've pointed out already in this thread people who reject the real Christ have already set themselves up to follow a false one, these are non-believers.
How could the clear teaching of harpazo (an event) have anything to do with a believer's salvation? It is quite clear that people who are saved will not follow the Anti-Christ...Heck they wouldn't even bake a cake that promotes sin for a gay wedding

Wait a second, I think I understand what you are saying.
You do realize that the Anti-Christ will never be confused for Jesus Christ
The Anti-Christ is a man and Jesus Christ is God, believers know their Shepherd (John 10).
There have been many false messiahs in this world, people who reject the real Messiah are looking for someone to straighten the world out, specifically when it comes to peace.
Like I've said before, people who reject the real Messiah have automatically set themselves up to receive a false one.

[bountyhunter]

Why would Christ bother to...? Take His people out of here before pouring His wrath out onto this world? This makes perfect sense to me, a child of God, His bride, is not called to His wrath.

Try reading what I actually posted, you seem to specialize in taking words out of context. If the "good Christians" were raptured away ahead of the tribulation, why would Christ bother to go into such detail warning His followers not to be tricked by the Anti Christ and listing all the things they will have to endure? Why would He say "those who endure (the tribulation) will be saved?"

According to you, they won't be here when the AC arrives since that occurs after the tribulation begins.

To answer your question: there is a very good reason it will happen in that sequence where Christ does not return until after the tribulation. God's elect, who WILL be left here during the tribulation, will be called up and tormented (some killed) by the followers of the AC. It is essential that they be here to speak against the AC to help save some from following him. It's written in plain words:

You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.//// Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

can you not understand this simple thing? If all the "good Christians" are whisked away, who would be left to do this? Who would God have to speak through? And Christ says clearly it WILL happen.

I have said what I have to say on the subject. I'm not here to convert anybody, just post the truth. Believe what you want. As noted, I am constantly astonished people don't understand such plain and simple language when Christ very clearly listed the things that will happen (the darkening of the sun, the abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place, etc) and after He lists all these things He says:

"Then you will see the Son of many coming."

A five year old would understand that means AFTER the things said before. It's so obvious, but clearly some people refuse to believe that because it's not what they want to hear.

I didn't say it, He did. I never posted a single thing that was not a direct quote of Christ.

[bountyhunter]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with this post, how do followers of Christ follow the Anti-Christ? That's like traveling east and west at the same time.
Your post doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense to you.

To answer your question:

There will be billions of people who believe they are Christians and believe they are following Christ (many who are "born again" and believe it makes them bulletproof against Satan) ..... but refuse to understand that the anti Christ comes first.

When the trib begins, Satan will come posing as Christ and the many who believe the false doctrine will fall for him. The reason is they can't seem to understand simple words that Christ spoke warning about who comes first (the abomination of desolation) and the events which must happen first before He returns.

I'll post it one more time in the hopes you might actually read it and understand:

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 “But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

OK, I'll summarize:

1) God will reduce the days of tribulation for the sake of God's elect. Does that sound like Christ whisked all His people away before the trib? Who can fail to understand.

2) False Christs will appear and perform great wonders and deceive people, even God's elect (some of them will fall). If anyone says "There is the Messiah", do not believe them.

3) The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, stars will fall and the heavens will be shaken.

4) “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."



READ THIS:

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[

Do you know why they will mourn? Because they will see that they have been following Satan (in the guise of the Anti Christ) all along because they did not heed Christ's warning. So as to your "going east and west" reference it is nonsense. Tru followers of Christ who understand His teachings will not follow the AC, but billions who are fooled because they won't hear words they don't want to hear will be duped. Your choice.


It is impossible to make it any clearer. If you can't understand, it is on you.