Officer Safety & CGN?

[rkt88edmo]

Deez nutz, I has them, I mean We haz dem?

This is somewhat the nature of the interwebz, loudmouths tend to drown out the more low key posters and youthful froth post in excess.

[Ron-Solo]

Well, in my opinion, the Mods that have posted in this thread are the ones, along with a few others, who have tried to keep things civil and professional. While I sometimes disagree with Kestryl, I do believe he is trying to run a good forum and keep things in check. I don't think it is just about making money for him.

The Off Topic has a good purpose, but the reigns could be held a little tighter on some things. Maybe get the mods to concentrate a little harder on it. Retired has done a great job in the LE forum, and it continues to be a good place to exchange ideas and provide good info to the non-LE members.

But, every time I see a thread about gun confiscations in disasters or a controversial police shooting in the news, I know it is a matter of time before the feeding fresh begins and the thread gets shut down. Also, the alleged "no knock" warrants. They are in reality so rare that they aren't worth discussing. In 32+ years of LE work, I only encountered a couple of true "no knock" warrants, and they involved armed murder suspects with a high risk swat entry. Those topics are just getting old.

Still a fan of CalGuns, just think they need more mods who can keep it in check. Retired, who I worked with at several different assignments and consider a friend, has called me on the carpet a couple of times over things I posted. He was right in his assessment, and has edited or deleted some of the things. Sometimes I get annoyed at the bologna and call a turd a turd.

Aloha,

Ron

[freonr22]

I am not a LEO, but I believe that the LEO bashers are a very small minority here. Often the same people come up as anti-LEO in each thread - they have some kind of chip on their shoulder. I believe the majority of Calguners, including myself, just want to be treated fairly by law enforcement and in general support the hard work done by LEOs state wide.

Threads: 414,861, Posts: 6,374,104, Members: 88,278, Active Members: 19,533



just a snapshot ....

how many out of the active users are anti leo? maybe 50? maybe less??? you forum members would know more than i, I am not a peace officer, but percentage wise /i would Imagine relatively small... my .02

[biochembruin]

I too am weary of the fanatical anti-LEO sentiment that exists here. I will admit, it is likely a small number of members, but it is enough of a presence to prevent me from going to meets or booths, and to put me on guard when meeting someone for a face-to-face purchase from the market place. I also won't have someone mail me something so they won't know where I live.

Think about it: If someone posts on Calguns advocating the killing of a LEO for some reason, and I'm a LEO, why would I want to potentially run into of of those people by going to a meet? The benefit of going to a meet clearly would not outweigh the risk to myself and my family.

I think the moderators do a good job of checking the truly outrageous posts, but it's the more subtle ones that get to stay and exert their influence. I understand that the mods don't want to put too much of a damper on the dialogue that occurs here, or else the site will suffer and ultimately lose sponsorship. Remember, this site is still a business. I don't believe that it is primarily driven by the bottom line by any stretch, and I still feel the owner's intent with this site is to further our gun rights, but at the same time banning people left and right will not help garner advertisement sponsors.

[iareConfusE]

I'm pretty sure people don't openly tell you to murder cops... I'm pretty sure a statement as blatant and blunt as that would get the person banned immediately. I think when some people form an argument that might seem to favor the non-LEO suspect/victim/whatever, people instantly label it as anti-LEO.

I've watched some of those clips of some pretty bad LEO encounters (most recently the one of the Ohio officer that was excessively abusive to the new LTC owner), and even when people make negative comments towards the bad apple LEOs (which there no doubt are), I see a lot of comments defending the LEO's actions, even if they're completely in the wrong.

I have a lot of respect for police and military, and I don't go out of my way to insult them, or do anything that would demean their service, however at the same time I'm not completely 100% biased towards an LEO's side when it comes to these stories I read, and I'll usually form an argument based on the way I see it, with my own logic. Other Calgunners do similarly, but maybe it just comes out a bit wrong, or is completely misunderstood and taken as anti-LEO advocacy or something of the sort.

[BigDogatPlay]

A troll is a troll... I try hard not to feed them. I often recommend noobs to specific content on CGN. I never direct anyone to OT.

If I was still active as a LEO I doubt seriously I would participate in the show booths and outreach as much as I do. Leroy Pyle, a peace officer of both courage and conviction, proved many years ago just how difficult a contrary administration can make things for an individual. Active officers also need to be concerned with their own safety and their families so care and caution have to be considered part of the deal.

But I am no longer active and, to be honest, the people I've worked at the booths with are cool about it. I've never seen one of them toss into a LEO hater thread. To me the ability to get the word out about our shared interests, and bring new people a good understanding of firearms, is worth whatever some random gomer might pop off with at me during a gun show booth or on the webz.

Thankfully I didn't see the thread about Officer Lasso, and I am glad that the mods deleted it quickly. The circumstances of his death, coming hard on the heels of Officer Henwood in San Diego and the deaths of two officers in South Dakota, are just inexcusable. Anyone who could or would advocate that his killing was somehow justified has far more serious problems than posting on a forum, IMNSHO.

[JeffM]

I agree that this forum has some people with extreme viewpoints on various subjects, including the subject of Law Enforcement.

The issue stems from this being a firearms-rights oriented forum. When rights are threatened or denied, Law Enforcement is seen as an oppressive element in the equation. Unfortunately they are the "hands-on" agents of the governments restriction of rights. That is not all they do, but that is what we end up focused on in the context of this forum.

There are members here who have had property confiscated, their homes invaded, and their privacy violated because of over zealous enforcement activities. The Milpitas lowers, John Contos case, etc.

This forum has very much been an "Us vs Them" outlet regarding firearms rights supporters and Law Enforcement.

Who here has been told that if they ever use a firearm in self defense that the worse thing you can do is talk to the police? That they are not you're friends and it will only hurt you?

Then there are new stories like these: new-orleans-policemen-convicted-over-bridge-shooting-in-wake-of-hurricane and CHP forcibly removing residents and confiscating guns in New Orleans

It should not lead anyone to wonder that there is an anti-LEO sentiment on a firearms forum so deeply entrenched in the fight for less restrictive government controls on God given sovereign rights.

Is that an excuse to advocate murder? No, of course not. But is it reasonable to expect some animosity, distrust, or fear? Yes, I would say so.

[Ron-Solo]

I'm pretty sure people don't openly tell you to murder cops... I'm pretty sure a statement as blatant and blunt as that would get the person banned immediately. I think when some people form an argument that might seem to favor the non-LEO suspect/victim/whatever, people instantly label it as anti-LEO.

I've watched some of those clips of some pretty bad LEO encounters (most recently the one of the Ohio officer that was excessively abusive to the new LTC owner), and even when people make negative comments towards the bad apple LEOs (which there no doubt are), I see a lot of comments defending the LEO's actions, even if they're completely in the wrong.

I have a lot of respect for police and military, and I don't go out of my way to insult them, or do anything that would demean their service, however at the same time I'm not completely 100% biased towards an LEO's side when it comes to these stories I read, and I'll usually form an argument based on the way I see it, with my own logic. Other Calgunners do similarly, but maybe it just comes out a bit wrong, or is completely misunderstood and taken as anti-LEO advocacy or something of the sort.

You obviously didn't read the thead in question before it got deleted. CalGuns members were in fact supporting the druggie Who shot the cop.

[TRICKSTER]

I'm pretty sure people don't openly tell you to murder cops... I'm pretty sure a statement as blatant and blunt as that would get the person banned immediately. I think when some people form an argument that might seem to favor the non-LEO suspect/victim/whatever, people instantly label it as anti-LEO.

I've watched some of those clips of some pretty bad LEO encounters (most recently the one of the Ohio officer that was excessively abusive to the new LTC owner), and even when people make negative comments towards the bad apple LEOs (which there no doubt are), I see a lot of comments defending the LEO's actions, even if they're completely in the wrong.

I have a lot of respect for police and military, and I don't go out of my way to insult them, or do anything that would demean their service, however at the same time I'm not completely 100% biased towards an LEO's side when it comes to these stories I read, and I'll usually form an argument based on the way I see it, with my own logic. Other Calgunners do similarly, but maybe it just comes out a bit wrong, or is completely misunderstood and taken as anti-LEO advocacy or something of the sort.

Here are some quotes in response to the news article where the posters tried to justify the killing of the officer. You decide if "maybe it just comes out a bit wrong, or is completely misunderstood and taken as anti-LEO advocacy or something of the sort."

"Responding to a verbal disturbance, well first they need to MYOB, Entering private property without a warrant and being ordered to kill the dog is bad. Its justified to protect your family and property from anyone killing to kill and destroy. If he has illegal possession of a firearm, he should be charged with that.

Did he in fact give a warning? I don't know if it did happen or just him making it up. If yes, then it is justified if the person did not stop. Right now it just looks like they were storming his place and kill whatever is in their way.

My opinion may be harsh, but everyone needs to MYOB. Nanny state laws need to go away."


Another poster wrote..

"First of all guys the officer was trespassing and was told as much by the owner."

He then went on to write.

"If one of your neighbors jumped over your wall and started threatening to kill one of your dogs assuming you love them you would be justified in stopping them. Unfortunately in this situation the officer felt his badge was more important than the gentleman's rights and love for his dogs and failed to realize he needed to remove himself from that situation instead of getting himself in deeper."

[BigDogatPlay]

@JeffM

If you looked at some of the recent postings on threads concerning NOLA and Katrina, you'll find me there. Look them up and take what I write there for what it's worth.

The LEOs active, former and retired who are posting here are among the overwhelming majority who do it right day in and day out. A very small minority of LEOs are the ones who are wrong. Speaking from my own experience they generally get found out and get dealt with appropriately. Pretty much like every other business or profession... the wrong guys eventually show themselves and get dealt with.

99% of the rest of society, of which most of the membership here reflects, only sees LEOs when they have done something wrong and it's in the press or when a LEO has an enforcement contact with them personally. But since that is 100% of their interaction it becomes an easy stretch to see why so many will jump to a conclusion. Fold in the undercurrent of mistrust of government which runs rampant in a significant segment of the firearms community, and our society as a whole these days, and pretty soon all that smoke becomes rhetorical fire. This is not to say I trust government... I have a healthy skepticism.

For the sake of the discussion remember that god given sovereign rights are not absolute. Far too many think that they are and seem to act accordingly.

[Kestryll]

But is it reasonable to expect some animosity, distrust, or fear? Yes, I would say so.

No, it's not reasonable at all.
It is the product of ignorance, paranoia and knee-jerk reactionism.

Reasonable people do not display the kind of ignorant and pathological hatred that the small group of LEO-bashers/hater on this forum do.

It is a small number and frankly I'm very disappointed when they start singing their foolish chorus in threads that the rest of the membership either falls silent and lets them rant or even quietly nods their head in partial agreement.

Let me put it this way, the two most basic rules for threads regarding LEOs has always been:
A) Stick to the incident or topic at hand, do not generalize or vilify all based on one. That last part should NOT be difficult given how frequently we say it in the wake of a shooting.
B) Do not advocate or suggest illegal, destructive or violent actions or behaviors.
That's it, those are the two main rules and if those were followed this discussion would not be happening.

And yet we have a small but dedicated and vocal cliche of ignorant trolls who can't even master those two simple rules.
They are so wedded to their hatred and angst that they can not even discuss an event or topic involving and LEO or LEA without frothing at the mouth.

And the sad part is this miniscule portion of the total membership is so vocal and the rest of the membership is either silent or tries to find some shred of reasonableness in their rants that to the rest of the world it's seen as tacit approval and agreement.
And Calguns now has the internet reputation as anti-leo that it does.

[Kestryll]

Now I'm going to throw this one back at the LEOs in this thread.
I see every Report Post notice that is generated on this web site.
I do not recall seeing a notice about advocating, suggesting or supporting the killing of an LEO as described.
This isn't to say it didn't happen, quite the opposite. Based on the reaction and discussion it did and it was definitely noted.
But not reported so the Staff could deal with it.

We don't see every post and can not be everywhere, if you do not tell us we can not do anything about it.

Based on conversations over the years with friends that are LEOs that statement should sound a bit familiar..

[Falconis]

Fair enough. I didn't see the post and gave the OP the benefit of the doubt that it happened.

But Kestryll, some of us do fight the fight when we see it. Can you blame us when we say, ehh forget it, not today. I'm tired. Considering the frequency of some of the posters? You said it yourself, calguns has a certain reputation, and it has it for a reason.

[sima09]

People always talk and the beauty of America is that they can and do...what sucks is that they are using their right against the people who protect them. Yes there are "bad apples" but most LEOs are not that way. I didn't read the post, I wish I had, but most likely these people don't hae lives and they just want attention-good or bad- they don't care. Calguns is a great place to learn about firearms, safety and the law, and a few hardheads shouldn't stop you from recomending the site or going to events..Words only have the power you give them. No need to bring ourselves down to their level.

[iareConfusE]

You obviously didn't read the thead in question before it got deleted. CalGuns members were in fact supporting the druggie Who shot the cop.

I did read the thread, hell, I posted in it. I might not have read through everyone's comments though.