Officer Safety & CGN?

[iareConfusE]

BWO, your posts clearly show an anti LE flavor, even though you vehemently deny it. You, specifically, are one of the many individuals I was referring to. You claim to have a military police background. You may have a military background, but you are not pro LE in my opinion. You may be bitter about your negative experiences with LE because of your arrest and you've voiced that opinion in the past. Some members think you are a living legend. I am not one of those people.

I'm going to make a venn diagram on this. I know it's geeky - but it will help illustrate things. Both sides are a little right (except for the dummies on the extreme ends).

I was never a cop. My uncle was a Sheriff (and FFL!) in Georgia. I sit on the LE committee of CRPA. I have a friend or two in the ATF, etc. . .

I'm kind of on the edges, since I also know folks who have fantasies on the other side too. . .

BRB. . .

ETA: - those of you who are on my FB can see it. It is too complicated to post here. Basic idea is that "groups" all have different ways of viewing the proper role of person vs. society. This can't really be changed, since all people ARE DIFFERENT. It is rare to see something the same way another person sees it.

The ninja trick is to look for common ground. That common ground starts with being polite, talking straight, and not being a dick. I can't put it more plainly than that.

As always, Oaklander is the voice of reason.

This is how I feel about this whole issue, and the opinions of people should be flexible, dependent on the situation. People view things differently, and there isn't a single right answer for everything. We should be able to use logic and reasoning to form our arguments.

I don't feel BWO's views are anti-LEO at all, even trying to read in between the lines, they sound pretty logical to me.

I get this feeling that anything said that might seem to favor a non-LEO stance, regardless of how logical or reasonable that argument was is viewed as some sort of extreme cop hatred on this forum. I don't think that's the case at all, and I'm pretty sure the majority of the people on this site are VERY pro-LEO, but would still side with a non-LEO in a situation in which the officer was clearly in the wrong. And then of course I now see people that would side with LEO regardless of any reasoning or facts that might be laid out against them, which actually bothers me a bit.

[geeknow]

My question is this.

What are we (as in ALL of us) going to do to make this better?

That is, pretty much, all I care about in this situation.

All have been quick to argue their case. Now, be just as quick to find a middle ground. That is, I believe, the true intent of cgn, and its strength.

Putting people into 'categories' has never ended well for anyone.

[biochembruin]

...I get this feeling that anything said that might seem to favor a non-LEO stance, regardless of how logical or reasonable that argument was is viewed as some sort of extreme cop hatred on this forum. I don't think that's the case at all, and I'm pretty sure the majority of the people on this site are VERY pro-LEO, but would still side with a non-LEO in a situation in which the officer was clearly in the wrong. And then of course I now see people that would side with LEO regardless of any reasoning or facts that might be laid out against them, which actually bothers me a bit.

My experience is that this does not happen. If a controversial incident occurs, and there may be some grainy videotape or an initial news report that comes out about the event, two things happen. First, people that have a bias against police scream for blood, saying officers should be fired, put on leave w/out pay, or jailed for a crime.

A second group of people try to point out that all the facts may not be known yet, and illustrate under what circumstances the actions, however ugly they sound, might actually be legal and necessary. Of course, to make a final judgment, all the facts would need to come out, which takes time.

People argue that advocating for a full investigation and explaining policy and law is "closing ranks" or "the thin blue line" in action. With all the constitutional scholars around here, I don't see too many people argue for due process for police officers.

[oaklander]

The solution, and I know it sounds simplistic (it really is NOT) is THIS:

Do more outreach between LE and CGN. And I mean NICE outreach. Where folks get together and do fun stuff. One of the main reasons that UOC (at least in NorCal, and CGN are now in a good "peace accord" is simple that we started coordinating events together. The first was Pleasant Hill (there were a few of those), and then Sunnyvale, with various things at Taco shops and coffee places in between.

Simply letting the folks meet, face to face, has made all the difference.

Common sense coming:

It is easy to be a dick online. Much harder to be a penis when you are having a beer with someone.

[sandman21]

BWO, your posts clearly show an anti LE flavor, even though you vehemently deny it. You, specifically, are one of the many individuals I was referring to. You claim to have a military police background. You may have a military background, but you are not pro LE in my opinion. You may be bitter about your negative experiences with LE because of your arrest and you've voiced that opinion in the past. Some members think you are a living legend. I am not one of those people.

I accept your comment that you made a mistake and were quick to judge. I also don't mean to beat on you constantly, but I do find it telling that's where your mind automatically went. Let's assume you aren't the anti type we are talking about on this site, because I don't know you from squat. Even if you are not, you are still part of the problem when you feed into posts like that. Especially with what you wrote. Either way, you were still rationalizing why a police officer got murdered.

Again, to clarify, this isn't meant as an F-U, you're a prick type post. But just an informative one as to one reason why this particular thread exists right now.

His original post was not anti-LEO at all; someone has a right to defend life and property from an illegal act regardless of who it is. He was discussing an article posted on a discussion board, the fact that he did not wait long enough for your tastes has nothing to do with LEO bashing, once the fact came out that the LEO did no wrong and he still justified it then you can call him a basher.


If people want to discuss an article about an indecent with LEO, no knock raids, Katarina, while you may not like these subjects they do not make the poster anti-LEO or bashers. Calling them basher devalues when someone does actually makes sweeping generalizes etc.


I know I am going to labeled a cop hater for this post, nothing I can do about it.

[SeanCasey]

I am not a LEO (yet), but I'll add my two cents to this thread. I have worked quite a number of different CGN events and a CGF event. In all that time I can only think of two people who were current or retired law enforcement who worked the booths. Bill (retired) obviously being retired, has been very active at the booths and having the depth of his experience and his perspective as retired LE at the booths is a great assest. I forget the name of the officer from LBPD who volunteered at a Costa Mesa show, but he did a great job as well, and did a fantasic job.

Now that the praise is out of the way... The anti-LE posts are noticable, and at time I have wondered if being part of this group will hurt me in backgrounds when I apply for different agencies, hopefully not. I have noticed that much of the "us vs. them" stems from a feeling of unfairness due to the way the state legislators have written the laws. And that is what CGN and CGF are all about, challanging those laws, but doing so in the legal framework provided.

This is where I believe there is opportunity. Calguns as a community I think would be well served to be involved to a greater degree in working with LE. The CGF event at the California Police Cheifs Association's meeting in Anaheim is a perfect example of this. It showed our willingness to work alongside LE. But, the CGN communitty needs to embrace this type of partnership. That said, the CGN LE members should not shy away from working booths and openly supporting the good things CGN/CGF do because of a vocal minority. In essence, if Calgun's LEO's were more noticable and commonplace at events it may help our ability to reach more LEO's and also bridge the gap between LEO's and non-LEO's and for us to be partners in this community of gun owners.

It would also help with CGN leadership was a bit more clear in defining what they will and will not tolerate as far as LE topics and provide guidence to the general membership as to the difference between discussing an single incident versus projecting one persons poor judgement on an entire group of people.

[biochembruin]

...His original post was not anti-LEO at all; someone has a right to defend life and property from an illegal act regardless of who it is...

If you're advocating shooting anyone (LEO or not) for standing in your back yard and pointing a taser, or even a gun for that matter, at your dog, you seriously need to educate yourself regarding the law, and need to check your moral compass.

[sandman21]

If you're advocating shooting anyone (LEO or not) for standing in your back yard and pointing a taser, or even a gun for that matter, at your dog, you seriously need to educate yourself regarding the law, and need to check your moral compass.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/calcrim_juryins.pdf

[Ron-Solo]

If you're advocating shooting anyone (LEO or not) for standing in your back yard and pointing a taser, or even a gun for that matter, at your dog, you seriously need to educate yourself regarding the law, and need to check your moral compass.

I agree 100%

Too many members are quick to grab the torches and pitchforks for a lynch mob to get those "evil LEOS" anytime there is a news report of LE doing something before any facts are known.

His original post was not anti-LEO at all; someone has a right to defend life and property from an illegal act regardless of who it is. He was discussing an article posted on a discussion board, the fact that he did not wait long enough for your tastes has nothing to do with LEO bashing, once the fact came out that the LEO did no wrong and he still justified it then you can call him a basher.

There is no grace period for advocating the killing of a peace officer. Period

If people want to discuss an article about an indecent with LEO, no knock raids, Katarina, while you may not like these subjects they do not make the poster anti-LEO or bashers. Calling them basher devalues when someone does actually makes sweeping generalizes etc.

The Katrina and "No Knock" threads all turn into bash vests where members quickly suggest armed resistance. How is that no bashing?


I know I am going to labeled a cop hater for this post, nothing I can do about it.

There is something you can do to avoid being labeled a cop hater. Think about what you post, because while you may not intend to sound anti-LE, you definitely come across that way.