MERGED THREADS "Bullet Button Assault Weapon" Regs

[Virginian]

Then how can this be "no such thing"?

30515 (a) (7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Indeed, and now we are discussing the arcane absurdity of the definitions.
Bear in mind the contest does not aim to subdue actual criminals... it is a pissing contest between the legislature and hobbyists.

[Drew Eckhardt]

As I mentioned above... you can't be featureless on an AR pistol.

While a featureless AR pistol with free-state magazine release is not permitted, you can have an unregistered featureless AR pistol with a bullet button.

The magazine attaching outside of the pistol grip is in and of itself a "Feature"

No it is not. The PC 30515(a)(4)(D) feature is a "detachable magazine" outside the pistol grip, while the precondition for PC 30515(a) is does not have a "fixed magazine" where the two terms are legally different. If they weren't, bullet buttons would have been illegal between 2001 and 2016 when the qualifying condition was "has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine" and we wouldn't have needed SB-880. The definition of "detachable magazine" hasn't changed since then apart from the addition of AR bullet button magnets and AR/AK firearms missing magazine releases.

A bullet button means the magazine can be removed without "disassembling the action" so the magazine is not fixed.

It requires a tool (including a bullet) for operation so the magazine is not detachable.

(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

where the relevant definitions are

PC 30515(b)

For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.

and 11 CCR 5471(p)

"Fixed magazine" means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.

together with 11 CCR 5471(n)

"Disassembly of the firearm action" means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.

versus 11 CCR 5471(m)

"Detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

An AR-15 style firearm that has a bullet-button style magazine release with a magnet left on the bullet-button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, magazine catch spring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine. An AK-47 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch, spring, and rivet/pin) constitutes a detachable magazine.

The only way to be featureless is for it to have a fixed magazine, and in that case, the barrel shroud does not matter.

Nope. It can have a bullet button, in which case it does not have a fixed magazine, does not have a detachable magazine outside the pistol grip, and the barrel shroud + threads matter.

[Clif]

Was there EVER a definition of detachable magazine in the PC?

Yes, but I will have to dig out my old PC book somewhere. The web only has current PC.

[Sousuke]

Then how can this be "no such thing"?

30515 (a) (7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Sorry I meant to say rifle not firearm.

[Clif]

If it is not defined in PC, then according to CalDOJ it is not eligible for RAW. According to CalDOJ, a BB is NOT a detachable magazine.

Hince, according to 30515 (a) (7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, my BB shotguns would not be eligible for registration.

I just know the DOJ is writing up a search warrant for me now because of my above post.

[meno377]

OR if it does not require a tool to disengage the magazine then it's detachable.

That is why a BB is not a detachable magazine- a tool is required to remove the magazine.

Now do you get it? Read the sentence swiftly a few times and it should come to you.

What defines a detachable magazine if it does NOT require disassembly of the action? Standard mag release or a device that does not have a mag catch, assembly, spring, etc. as in the second paragraph of 5471(m). Perhaps a BB does fit the definition that it may not require disassembly of the action in order to remove the magazine, BUT

If either one OR the other of the the two determinants do not apply, then it must be a non-detachable magazine.

That's not how I interpret it and I explained it before.

In addition I explained this part as an example in another thread:

I will make a very simple example how this one sentence constitutes a detachable magazine to an AR equipped with a bullet button. The word "OR" doesn't disregard the preceding when used the way we read it. The use of a tool is another way to accomplish the same result . An example of this is either you can make a right turn to go east OR make three left turns to go east. Either option gives you the same result.

So back to the bullet button, if you can eject the magazine without opening the action that constitutes a detachable magazine. Introducing a tool is just another option. That's why the bullet button ar15s are now an AW under the new law.

it says without disassembly of the action OR use of a tool.

BB needs a tool.

Without disassembly of the action- you can't readily remove a BB without its tool. Disassembly may not be relevant, especially the latter part OR use of a tool would take it out of the definition of a detachable magazine.

Absolutely not. Again look below: Explain how if you were to take "without disassembly of the firearm action" and add the word with would not define it as a detachable magazine?

Detachable magazine means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool

Detachable magazine means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or with use of a tool

Even without adding the word "with" if you stick to the word "or" it means either or: One way OR the other.

Answer yes or no, please- SACF featured weapons with standard mag release existing prior to 1/1/2017 and as far back as 2001 are not eligible to be registered because unlawful to possess at the time.

This is true. BB up until 2017 defined an AR15 with a fixed magazine. That has changed. In 2017 BB no longer defines an AR15 with a fixed magazine. I am not including the new updated maglocks in this discussion. In the simplest way to explain: The original bullet button "loophole" has expired 1/1/2017. And you are given a grace period to register a bullet button AR.

[Virginian]

I just know the DOJ is writing up a search warrant for me now because of my above post.

Your salvation may be because they appear to be paid by the word, and the intended document may take too long to be relevant. Think decades.

[dieselpower]

That's 'strange', because 'detachable magazine' has been defined in the regs since the year 2000 and it seemed to work well.

The regs supplement, explain and 'fill in the gaps' in the PC. I don't see where the PC must necessarily define a detached magazine. That is where the regs are helpful and have the force of law. The PC may be stated in general language where specific definitions may be contained in the regs that are not otherwise defined in the PC.

They were also defined in PC, which is where DOJ got the definition, which the PC now changed! And no longer defines!

My opinion is people really need to start ignoring ifilef. At first I figured he was a smart guy and would figure out he was on the wrong side of the issue. I am sure there are many lawyers and anti-gun nuts who believe as he does and will support his line of thinking. I hope people here can see how wrong he is. Just my 2 cents.

I will give you the actual regulation definitions in play here.

the regs as submitted to the OAL http://213ajq29v6vk19b76q3534cx.wpen...016/06/doj.pdf

Now please take note, a Bullet Button is NOT a type of magazine. Its a type of Release mechanism. This is a critical point ifilef isnt realizing.

"Bullet-button" means a product requiring a tool to remove an ammunition feeding device or magazine by depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock. A bullet-button equipped fully functional semiautomatic firearm does not meet the fixed magazine definition under Penal Code section 30515(b)

"Detachable Magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine

An AR-15 style firearm that has a bullet-button style magazine release with a magnet left on the bullet-button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch magazine catch siring and magazine release button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AK-47 style
firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly {magazine catch rivet and pin} constitutes a detachable magazine

"Fixed Magazine means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.

There are absolutely positively no other definitions of a magazine other than a Fixed and Detachable.

A BB is neither a Fixed Magazine nor a Detachable magazine. It is a device used to detach a magazine.

If there is no disassembly required to detach, the magazine is a detachable one.

If your rifle has a BB and was legal to own prior to 2017, as long as it still has a BB, you have til 2018 to register. At that time the regulations that focus on a RAW come into play. Before that time they do not. Reg 5477 only comes into play AFTER registration.

[Clif]

That's not how I interpret it and I explained it before.

In addition I explained this part as an example in another thread:





Absolutely not. Again look below: Explain how if you were to take "without disassembly of the firearm action" and add the word with would not define it as a detachable magazine?



Even without adding the word "with" if you stick to the word "or" it means either or: One way OR the other.



This is true. BB up until 2017 defined an AR15 with a fixed magazine. That has changed. In 2017 BB no longer defines an AR15 with a fixed magazine. I am not including the new updated maglocks in this discussion. In the simplest way to explain: The original bullet button "loophole" has expired 1/1/2017. And you are given a grace period to register a bullet button AR.

"Detachable magazine means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool" was the verbage of detachable mag in the old PC, when the BB was GTG under those rules.

And DUDE, either you are responding to something else other than my questions or you just cut and past random $h!t, because I am not talking about registering ARs I am talking about registering shotguns with BBs

[ifilef]

If it is not defined in PC, then according to CalDOJ it is not eligible for RAW. According to CalDOJ, a BB is NOT a detachable magazine.

Hince, according to 30515 (a) (7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, my BB shotguns would not be eligible for registration.

You are misunderstanding the statute. If you indeed have such SA shotguns with BB, and they were lawfully in your possession with a BB prior to 1/1/2017, you'd be eligible to register them as AW, yes, under 30900(b)(1)?

The fact they contained BB NEGATED them being capable of accepting detachable magazines, and 30900(b)(1) should trump 30515(a)(7) in determining what can be registered.

Do be aware of the following which I just found: 5471(a) "Ability to accept a detachable magazine" means with respect to a semiautomatic shotgun, it does not have a fixed magazine". So, DOJ applied a special definition to 30515(a)(7) shotguns only, apparently.

So, applying that to your situation, your BB as you know is not a fixed magazine. You should be able to register it if you possessed it lawfully prior to 1/1/2017.

[meno377]

"Detachable magazine means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool" was the verbage of detachable mag in the old PC, when the BB was GTG under those rules.

What you just said is in the new regulations. I posted earlier both versions and you said to find it in the penal code which doesn't exist at this moment.

[Clif]

My opinion is people really need to start ignoring ifilef. At first I figured he was a smart guy and would figure out he was on the wrong side of the issue. I am sure there are many lawyers and anti-gun nuts who believe as he does and will support his line of thinking. I hope people here can see how wrong he is. Just my 2 cents.

I will give you the actual regulation definitions in play here.

the regs as submitted to the OAL http://213ajq29v6vk19b76q3534cx.wpen...016/06/doj.pdf

Now please take note, a Bullet Button is NOT a type of magazine. Its a type of Release mechanism. This is a critical point ifilef isnt realizing.

"Bullet-button" means a product requiring a tool to remove an ammunition feeding device or magazine by depressing a recessed button or lever shielded by a magazine lock. A bullet-button equipped fully functional semiautomatic firearm does not meet the fixed magazine definition under Penal Code section 30515(b)

"Detachable Magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine

An AR-15 style firearm that has a bullet-button style magazine release with a magnet left on the bullet-button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch magazine catch siring and magazine release button constitutes a detachable magazine. An AK-47 style
firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly {magazine catch rivet and pin} constitutes a detachable magazine

"Fixed Magazine means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.

There are absolutely positively no other definitions of a magazine other than a Fixed and Detachable.

A BB is neither a Fixed Magazine nor a Detachable magazine. It is a device used to detach a magazine.

If there is no disassembly required to detach, the magazine is a detachable one.

If your rifle has a BB and was legal to own prior to 2017, as long as it still has a BB, you have til 2018 to register. At that time the regulations that focus on a RAW come into play. Before that time they do not. Reg 5477 only comes into play AFTER registration.

This helps, but where is the definition from? Section?

[meno377]

"Detachable magazine means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm without disassembly of the firearm action or use of a tool" was the verbage of detachable mag in the old PC, when the BB was GTG under those rules.

And DUDE, either you are responding to something else other than my questions or you just cut and past random $h!t, because I am not talking about registering ARs I am talking about registering shotguns with BBs

My reply before the previous wasn't to you. So ignore it since it doesn't apply to shotguns.

[canid]

The balls on this guy.

Keep us updated. Start livestreaming if they raid you.

I would encourage anybody on the site to start livestreaming if ever they get raided for anything they understand to the best of their ability to be compliant, correctly or incorrectly.

[meno377]

If there is no disassembly AND no tool required the magazine is detachable.

That's right. But the new law includes the use of a tool if you don't have to disassemble.