Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[jagermaster]

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[Siringo]

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I think we need to slow down the bolt velocity but still ensure positive lockup. I put a hydraulic buffer in mine -- but I don't now if that helps at all. I did that to protect the scope.

Wierd though how well factory stuff shots and it still moves. My problem is when I am deer hunting, I may unload and reload several times a day and using the same cartridge, the bullet would be moving all over the place. I tried closing slowly and using the plunger to seat the bolt, but it does not always work. The extractor doesn't always lock onto the rim of the case.

[Slash2]

here's some clearer pictures of the primers on the cases loaded to 45gr. of Lil' gun and 230 gr FMJ's.

[IMG]

I found what I believe to be one of Tim's prototype cases among the cases he sent me, notice no case markings and a primer that's a bit flatter than any I've seen on the others!

[/IMG]

[Wildcatter]

here's some clearer pictures of the primers on the cases loaded to 45gr. of Lil' gun and 230 gr FMJ's.

[IMG]

I found what I believe to be one of Tim's prototype cases among the cases he sent me, notice no case markings and a primer that's a bit flatter than any I've seen on the others!

[/IMG]

[Wildcatter]

Have you guys with the bullet travel tried to bond the case to the bullet yet?

[Wildcatter]

P.S... On that un-marked case, notice, flat primer and no ejector mark. The little round mark from the ejector is definitely a good place to decide to back off the load a little. Now the pundits, with their canned formulas and ity-bity calculators, will tell you that this 45gr load has way to much bolt thrust. I say,.. “What bolt thrust?” “Show me, and then I’ll show you these cases”! “There are No Bolt Marks, at all, on any of those cases”!!

[Siringo]

Glued one in tonight -- will see tomorrow after it sets up. Used red loctite.

[Siringo]

I tried the red loctite and it do not set up properly. Will have to try again.

Went to the range today and shot 300 gr. jacketed 45-70 bullets sized to .452. These were the Remington, Hornady and old Barnes Orginal Spitzers. My primary load was 30.5 grains of Lil'gun.

The Remingtons did not perform as well as they had before and went into a 4 inch group.

The Hornadys grouped into a 1.5 inch group.

The Barnes grouped into a 3 inch group.

The Hornadys were the easiest to resize and held together well in the sand berm compared to the Remingtons. The Barnes did not expand and just bent over.

I also shot the Hornady with a 32.2 gr. charge of Lil'gun and got a group size of 2.0 inches.

Previous velocity of the Remington load was 1850 fps.

I wanted to post a pic of the groups, but for some reason I can not post attachments.

[Siringo]

By the way -- during my range session today is made up some 45 gr. Lil'gun loads with a Hornady 230 gr. TC (encapsulated one). Ejected of fired cases was very weak, sometimes dumping the brass on the shooting bench and other times sending them out a couple of feet. I have sooting all the way down the case. Group size was more like a pattern. Could there be that much difference between the round nose and the TC? I don't think I was getting a good burn and 45 grs. is about all the case will hold. My OAL was 2.1 inches.

[Wildcatter]

By the way -- during my range session today is made up some 45 gr. Lil'gun loads with a Hornady 230 gr. TC (encapsulated one). Ejected of fired cases was very weak, sometimes dumping the brass on the shooting bench and other times sending them out a couple of feet. I have sooting all the way down the case. Group size was more like a pattern. Could there be that much difference between the round nose and the TC? I don't think I was getting a good burn and 45 grs. is about all the case will hold. My OAL was 2.1 inches.

I repeat Gentlemen; most sooting usually is a function of not enough pressure. The question to ask, is why? Could be not enough powder, not enough bullet pull, or the powder burn rate is to slow, or the sum of all of these symptoms at the same time. Assuming everything else is safely reloaded to spec; these suggestions usually are the major culprits. Low pressures can cause the case not to seal in the chamber and can become so bad that the gases escaping down the sides of the case can cause the case to collapse from the side. I’ve never seen this in the 450, but it is always possible. A little sooting, at and around the case mouth is Normal and is seen in all rimless straight cases (45acp/9mm etc.). Using faster burning powders, ala, ‘lil gun/296 and others, usually keeps sooting to a minimum. AA1680, needs a stout crimp and allot of powder to seal properly, but then a little sooting can still be visible, but this should cause you no alarm and AA1680 has the additional benefit of driving the speeds up.

Something else about crimping vs. bullet creep, consider. Using a drill motor, I have chucked up the cutter of a hand held tubing cutter (every hardware store has them)and with a stone have nicely rounded off the sharp cutting edge. The cutter on the tubing cutter usually is held to the tool with a screw. Take the cutter out insert a longer screw; put a jam nut on the opposite side and you are now ready for the drill/lathe chuck. Any kind of stone will work; anything from one from the front yard or a chunk of cement, to something you buy from the hardware, just so long as it is on hard side. Now you have a nice little tool to roll a heavy crimp into the bullet at nearly any location you desire (Because we head space on the case mouth, you must stay well away from the case mouth. The crimp is best done towards the bullet base, but not on the base, bullet bases are critical to accuracy.) and is as good as any, so called standard roll crimp, something we cannot use at our case mouths. It will very slightly shorten the case length, so don’t get carried away. Keep the crimp fairly consistent, that is to say, location and pressure. Measure the final case length to see if you made it too short or have not put on enough crimp. Pull a couple of bullets and look to see if you have dented the bullet sides, you actually want this denting. This type of crimp is particularly useful when using solids. I put a groove into the solid at the spot I want to roll the crimp into, using this method. Lead based bullets do not need such a grove, as the crimp squeezes into the side of the bullet. Those long heavy bullets seem to thrive with this method of crimping, of course I still tapper crimp. After a little practice The Side Roll Crimp, as I am wont to call it, is easy to do and to keep somewhat consistent and accuracy is not adversely affected, even if you aren’t particularly consistent, yea even sometimes accuracy is made better.

Safety First…t

[Wildcatter]

Here’s another style of crimp. This too will stop bullet creep dead in its tracks, its a type of side crimp. After you’ve pretty much decided which bullet you like most or the trade-offs you are willing to except, you can have Lee Dies; make up a Lee Factory Crimp Die that crimps well south of the case mouth, just like the side crimp I use (your going to have to tell them how far south on the case you want it and how much crimp is required, hey, this is all custom stuff here). Or, I bought a Factory Crimp die for the 45-70, cutting off the base of the die and shortening that crimp plunger do-dah (heck I don’t know what they call it?), this let the case go well above the top of the die, before the crimping action took place, which then placed the side crimp way down the case, where I wanted it anyways. This is very slick and quick for reloading and much less time consuming than the chemical bonding. Of course, this will require some minor machining.

Safety First…t

[tankerman]

I loaded some Zero 230 gr. FMJ and some Barnes 200 gr.XPB

Been following this thread and noticed some of these other folks been getting some pretty good accuracy with heavier bullets. If I remember this thread correctly you have been mostily testing fairly light weight bullets. Are you interested in heavy lead?

I've got plenty of high quality .452 400 grain FNGC (hard cast). Let me know if you're intersted, I'm in your area and would be happy to give you a box.


(I'm partial to heavy cast bullets, they're hog magnets)

[THEDUCK]

450 range visit

After speaking to the old wise one (Wildcatter), i loaded up some suggested rounds and headed for the range.
First let me tell you all that i'm a competitive F Class shooter and my two shooters are a 6BR and 6.5-284, reloading and checking pressure signs are not a new subject for me.
Listed below are my results so far with the 250 flex tip 450 factory bullet with a 2.260 OAL (.010 short of max OAL).

45g AA1680 = no pressure signs 2440 fps (my chrono took a crap after the first two shots)
46g no pressure signs
47g no pressure signs
48g low to medium low pressure signs (most accurate load so far) abot .75" between hole centers @100 yards)
Now 48g is a slightly compressed load with this bullet, i CAN NOT fit any more powder in the case because this bullet seats deep into the case about .400".

P.S. love the 12” flame exiting the muzzle with no flash hider…..

I will keep you posted after the range today which i will be shooting the beast at 300yards.

P.P.S my shoulder hurts today

[THEDUCK]

450 load data

Well just finished loading up some rounds...i managed to compress AA1680 to an OAL of 2.265" with a powder charge of 48g (factory 250g flex tip).
I will try out my chrono again and let you know of the data.
going to the range to bust up my already sore shoulder........

[Wildcatter]

Ok Duck, I know you're no stranger to pressure signs and Hypo loads, but just be careful and watch those pressures. But, I bet you're not even near the factory pressures of your 6.5x284. Sounds like you are at the end of the road for 1680 and that particular 250gr. What are the speeds at 48grs and remind us, what barrel length are you using?

For you other guys. Duck is an expert in his own right. Duck states he is getting medium low pressures, the pics and chrony speeds should be quite telling. If you were to use his exact reciept, but subsituted 296 powder with 48grs you'd have even more pressure and even more pressures with lil gun. So, here are some warnings signs, heed them.

Safety First...t