AREA 52 #3 - Comments, Suggestions, Ideas

[Hunter]

The brochure I pulled out of the metal box near the wagon remains said that human waste could be buried away from water, and the ash should be spread out.

What you are saying is correct. But remember that the Playa is covered with water at various times of the year, so that is why BLM prohibits human waste being buried in the playa. Technical Ted nailed it on the reasons why, lack of organisms for decomposition of it. As for ash, yes it can be scattered BUT one cannot have a fire pit dug into the playa. All fires must be self contained (ie wood stove) or elevated about the ground to prohibit any burn marks. Also I reconfirmed that BLM does require permits for non commercial activities. This includes "large family gatherings, cub scout troop outings, ect..." basically any large group that can have an impact on the immediate NCA enviromental area. For those that don't understand the NCA designation, it is essentially a "Wilderness Area" that allows motorized vehicles in it. Where a true WA prohibits them. Outside of that, the NCA rules mirror the Wilderness Area rules.

[USN CHIEF]

What you are saying is correct. But remember that the Playa is covered with water at various times of the year, so that is why BLM prohibits human waste being buried in the playa. Technical Ted nailed it on the reasons why, lack of organisms for decomposition of it. As for ash, yes it can be scattered BUT one cannot have a fire pit dug into the playa. All fires must be self contained (ie wood stove) or elevated about the ground to prohibit any burn marks. Also I reconfirmed that BLM does reaquire permits for non commercial activities. This includes "large family gatherings, cub scout troop outings, ect..." basically any large group that can have an impact on the immediate NCA enviromental area. For those that don't understand the NCA designation, it is essentially a "Wilderness Area" that allows motorized vehicles in it. Where a true WA prohibits them. Outside of that, the NCA rules mirror the Wilderness Area rules.

I don't think that anyone went #2 on the playa area. The poo poo area was on high ground away from the Playa area..

[Hunter]

I don't think that anyone went #2 on the playa area. The poo poo area was on high ground away from the Playa area..

But it sounded like someone tossed the plastic bags of waste into the fire pit from earlier posts. I assume the firepit was near camp?

[USN CHIEF]

But it sounded like someone tossed the plastic bags of waste into the fire pit from earlier posts. I assume the firepit was near camp?

ahhhhh... Got it

[ohsmily]

If "the playa" is strictly the flat, uninterrupted dry lake bed, then we don't have need for concern. We didn't camp on "the playa." It was in an area separated from the large flat span by an elevated dirt ridge about 1 mile wide. So, if those rules about fire pits and burying human waste only apply to "the playa," then stop worrying. Of course, regardless of the regulations, we want to leave areas as close to pristine as possible.

[Hunter]

If "the playa" is strictly the flat, uninterrupted dry lake bed, then we don't have need for concern. We didn't camp on "the playa." It was in an area separated from the large flat span by an elevated dirt ridge about 1 mile wide. So, if those rules about fire pits and burying human waste only apply to "the playa," then stop worrying. Of course, regardless of the regulations, we want to leave areas as close to pristine as possible.

While you guys didn't camp/shoot in the largest(main) playa in that area, neverless you still camped in a playa. There is also a third playa, just over the next ridge from the one you guys were in. Rules are the same in all cases.

[mcubed4130]

... and then decided to leave the poo poo in the plastic bags that are non biogradable (Spelling). ...

Actually the bags at the latrine - were all biodegradable - I'd be willing to bet whoever brought the camp toilets - was only able to buy biodegradable bags anyway - assuming they were bought in CA.

-M3

[mcubed4130]

... Also, the general rule up there is any event / gathering with over 20 folks requires a BLM permit.

Hunter, do you have a source on this statement? I've not found anything in the BLM regs for this.

Because if this is true then the BLM guys that were spoken to about planning this trip - are wrong.

-M3

[Matt C]

So what happens to all the yote poo poo and all the other animals that live in the dessert? Do they go to a special area to poo poo?

LOL Good point.

[Hunter]

Hunter, do you have a source on this statement? I've not found anything in the BLM regs for this.

Because if this is true then the BLM guys that were spoken to about planning this trip - are wrong.

-M3

Yes, it comes direct from BLM field office that controls that area. The number of folks that showed up with the number of vehicles present puts this outing under the defintion of "Special Recreation Permit" requirements. I have dealt with this before and the BLM's general rule was events with less than 20 people would be ignored (but it is subjective on their part). Over that number plus a high number of vehicles is exactly what the SRP is for. Plus BLM rangers will cite for not having a permit when they come across such a group. This would be either by patrol or even by someone reporting it.

DO I NEED A PERMIT?
In general, most activities within the NCA and wilderness areas do not require a permit. This includes most family outings, camping, hunting, sightseeing, following the emigrant trail, traveling in Off-Highway vehicles and horseback riding.

However some activities do require a permit. There are three types of permits/authorizations for various uses:

Special Recreation Permits
Land-Use Authorizations
Visitor Use Agreements

BE SURE TO CONTACT WINNEMUCCA FIELD OFFICE FOR A PRE-APPLICATION CONSULTATION PRIOR TO SUBMITTING A PERMIT APPLICATION.

To determine if you need a permit answer the following questions:Are you charging a fee?
Do you expect to make money on the event or is the fee to cover expenses?
Will there be a competition?
Will you advertise?
Will you mark a course?
Will you be expecting a large number of vehicles at your event?

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, you may need a permit from the BLM.

What is a Special Recreation Permit?

Special Recreation Permits are required when a recreational activity on public lands falls into one of the following categories:

Commercial Uses - this is defined as recreational use of public lands and related waters for business or financial gain. When any person, group, or organization makes or attempts to make a profit, receive money, amortize equipment, or obtain goods or services, as compensation from participants in recreational activities occurring on public lands, the use is considered commercial.

Examples in the NCA:
The Burning Man Festival
Hunting outfitters and guides
Jeep tours (4-wheel drive) that charge participants
Equestrian tours and wagon train rides
Cattle drives that charge individuals to ride along
Filming or photography for profit even if associated with recreational use.

Competitive Uses - this means any organized, sanctioned, or structured use, event, or activity on public land in which two or more contestants compete and either (1) participants register, enter, or complete an application for the event, or (2) a predetermined course or area is designated.

Examples in the NCA:
Unique activities such as rocket launching and land sailing.
The world land speed record
Amateur altitude record rocket launches.

Organized Group Activities and Event Uses - this type of permit is for non-commercial and non-competitive group activities and recreation events. Special Recreation Permits are required for any organized group that has the potential to create impacts on public land.

Examples:
A large scout camp out
fraternity activity
a large family reunion
OHV races
horse endurance rides
mountain bike races

If one really wanted to push it, technically this event required a commercial permit due to the "amortize equipment" .. aka FA uses since you guys "donated" money to use them.

So the take away message for the next outing is "loose lips sink ships" or the more modern version "don't post everything on a website!"

[USN CHIEF]

Hunter, I see what you are saying about needing a permit but AFAIK, each group only had about 10 to 17 people per group and we all just happened to meet in that area.

[mcubed4130]

Yes, it comes direct from BLM field office that controls that area. The number of folks that showed up with the number of vehicles present puts this outing under the defintion of "Special Recreation Permit" requirements. I have dealt with this before and the BLM's general rule was events with less than 20 people would be ignored (but it is subjective on their part). Over that number plus a high number of vehicles is exactly what the SRP is for. Plus BLM rangers will cite for not having a permit when they come across such a group. This would be either by patrol or even by someone reporting it.

[/COLOR]


If one really wanted to push it, technically this event required a commercial permit due to the "amortize equipment" .. aka FA uses since you guys "donated" money to use them.

Hunter - it's unclear why you seem to be taking such a personal offensive tone on this. While I was not the planner on this trip - I know a lot of effort to do the right thing was done.

Anyway... I was asking specifically about the "20 people" reference you made. As this was a specific number - whereas I am aware of what SRP is; and all the regs I've seen; including the ones you quoted - are very arbitrary. When the planners of this event spoke with BLM; 20 was not the number given; which is why I am asking.

NEXT; as for "donated money" put into a hat - because we felt like it... does not equal as organized commercial event - nor would it have any real chance of amortizing the cost of FA weapons. NOW, IF tickets were sold in advance and/or $$ were required to fire the weapons; then it would fit your description... The fact that a disabled guy - brought his toys; and some of us - put in however much money we felt like putting into a hat for him; by no means equates to a commercial event.

-M3

[DedEye]

Hunter, I see what you are saying about needing a permit but AFAIK, each group only had about 10 to 17 people per group and we all just happened to meet in that area.

This is especially true given the way the camp sites were basically separated. People on one side of the playa hardly visited the other camp sites due to the heat; there were at least 3 and possibly 4 different groups.

[Hunter]

Hunter, I see what you are saying about needing a permit but AFAIK, each group only had about 10 to 17 people per group and we all just happened to meet in that area.

Yep that is what I heard as well. What amazes me is that some of these folks were even able to find this place, let alone all converge on the same out of the way small playa, some 50 miles from no where.


But seriously, I have dealt with the BLM on such "events" many times and while the rules seem to be whatever the local office dreams up, they generally are based a version of what I posted above. Some real pieces of cake will push the "commercial permit" clause just to be asses about it. Be it a private shooting outing, private river rafting trip, ect... there is always that one ranger that like to push stuff if he/she doesn't care for the scene they come across.

So understanding the rules of the game, before jumping in, is far better than asking for forgiveness later.

[USN CHIEF]

Yep that is what I heard as well. What amazes me is that some of these folks were even able to find this place, let alone all converge on the same out of the way small playa, some 50 miles from no where.
.

Sound travels a long way in the desert. I was with the first group that got there and slowly but surely about 4 other groups showed up. They were like "Hi" and we were like "Hi" and they said "are you guys shooting here" and we were said "Yes" and they said "Can we shoot too?" and we were like "Why not?" and that is how it happened..