AREA 52 #3 - Comments, Suggestions, Ideas

[Hunter]

Hunter - it's unclear why you seem to be taking such a personal offensive tone on this. While I was not the planner on this trip - I know a lot of effort to do the right thing was done.

Agreed and sorry if that is the way it comes across. What I'm trying to do is show you guys stuff that needs to be thought of for next outing.

Anyway... I was asking specifically about the "20 people" reference you made. As this was a specific number - ....

If you reread my posts you will see that the 20 is not a hard number. But it is only a rule of thumb the BLM guys have used in the past when I have conducted such events. There is no hard set number.

NEXT; as for "donated money" put into a hat - because we felt like it

This is where you are 100% wrong and is why I am pointing this out. I fully understand why one would donate money to the guy and I would be the first in line to do so as well. But in the eyes of the BLM, it then becomes a commercial activity. Let me give you an example.

Group of 10 guys want to go on a river rafting trip down the american river. Since they know how to raft, they elect to run a private trip vs hiring a commerical outfitter. But the problem is that no one in the group has any rafting equipment. So their choices are:

1)Rent everything and split the costs. Could run $200 for the weekend doing this way or $20 each.

or

2) They find another guy that has the equipment and is willing to go along. But in a gesture of goodwill the guys kick in $5 each, so a total of $50 to the owner. This is to help with the cleaning and wear/tear on the equipment, nothing more.

Now if option 1 is taken, the BLM has zero issues.

If option 2 is taken, the BLM will fine the equipment owner for not having a commercial permit!

So in Area 52 case, the group could have "rented" the NFA guns from the owner (never mind the Fed laws here for this argument) and as long as the owner was not present then no commercial activity. On the otherhand, if the NFA owner shows up and all you guys do is give him a free meal in exchange to play with this NFA stuff, then it is legally commercial.

[mcubed4130]

Agreed and sorry if that is the way it comes across. What I'm trying to do is show you guys stuff that needs to be thought of for next outing.

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

If you reread my posts you will see that the 20 is not a hard number. But it is only a rule of thumb the BLM guys have used in the past when I have conducted such events. There is no hard set number.

As I said; the 20 number just didn't match the number the BLM guys provided the planners which is why I was wondering; and I certainly am getting the idea; it depends on the BLM guy you talk to.

This is where you are 100% wrong and is why I am pointing this out. I fully understand why one would donate money to the guy and I would be the first in line to do so as well. But in the eyes of the BLM, it then becomes a commercial activity. Let me give you an example.

Group of 10 guys want to go on a river rafting trip down the american river. Since they know how to raft, they elect to run a private trip vs hiring a commerical outfitter. But the problem is that no one in the group has any rafting equipment. So their choices are:

1)Rent everything and split the costs. Could run $200 for the weekend doing this way or $20 each.

or

2) They find another guy that has the equipment and is willing to go along. But in a gesture of goodwill the guys kick in $5 each, so a total of $50 to the owner. This is to help with the cleaning and wear/tear on the equipment, nothing more.

Now if option 1 is taken, the BLM has zero issues.

If option 2 is taken, the BLM will fine the equipment owner for not having a commercial permit!

So in Area 52 case, the group could have "rented" the NFA guns from the owner (never mind the Fed laws here for this argument) and as long as the owner was not present then no commercial activity. On the otherhand, if the NFA owner shows up and all you guys do is give him a free meal in exchange to play with this NFA stuff, then it is legally commercial.

I don't agree (as there were people who donated who did not use the FA weapons at all - i.e. no direct return for their donation - other than a warm fuzzy feeling) - but that's ok... I see the point you are trying to make...

-M3

[Hunter]

...I don't agree (as there were people who donated who did not use the FA weapons at all - i.e. no direct return for their donation - other than a warm fuzzy feeling) - but that's ok... I see the point you are trying to make...

-M3

Actually we both don't agree with this interpretation, but the law is the law and BLM can and will enforce it that way. And it will stand up in court as I speak from direct experience in this matter.

[mcubed4130]

Actually we both don't agree with this interpretation, but the law is the law and BLM can and will enforce it that way. And it will stand up in court as I speak from direct experience in this matter.

Sorry to hear it man.

-M3

[Matt C]

Actually we both don't agree with this interpretation, but the law is the law and BLM can and will enforce it that way. And it will stand up in court as I speak from direct experience in this matter.

What stands up in court and what does not is based mainly on how good your lawyer is.

[xrMike]

Insects like dung beetles. Insects that have evolved into feces eating machines.

You sure know a lot about poo, Ted.

[scootergmc]

Is this the same thing that came up on ARFCOM last year with the first Area 5* shoot?

[hangman7]

Sounds like you guys need a better place to shoot in NV. There are some abandoned open pit mines near Carson Sink. Easy access, no serious off roading. You can go to Lovelock and return in 1 1/2 hrs. Never been bothered in 25 yrs going there. You can see 'em on Google Earth.

[sloguy]

far as another place to shoot, makes me wonder if my bosses would allow a private event at our range. id have to ro it on my own time and not get paid for it, or maybe we could open on one of our closed days and i could get paid for the time,but then everyone would have to pay range fees.

would people be interested in this? should i talk to my bosses and find out if i can host a calguns only shoot at our range on a day where we would otherwise be closed?

[ohsmily]

far as another place to shoot, makes me wonder if my bosses would allow a private event at our range. id have to ro it on my own time and not get paid for it, or maybe we could open on one of our closed days and i could get paid for the time,but then everyone would have to pay range fees.

would people be interested in this? should i talk to my bosses and find out if i can host a calguns only shoot at our range on a day where we would otherwise be closed?

I would not be interested in doing that in lieu of a desert shoot. I can shoot at a range any time. We would still be subject to range rules, even if it was a private event and things were run a little looser.

I enjoy meeting out in the middle of nowhere. Doesn't have to be the Black Rock Desert (where we were), but there are plenty of open areas in California and Nevada if you drive far enough.

[Darklyte27]

I did not go but wanted to tell you guys from what I read..

It seems like there was not the greatest communication. I would suggest having designated Team members to lead each "squad" or group.
and let each other know using 2 way radios, or meeting at certain times.
That way you all know whats going on.

It sounded like there was a few vehicle problems. Maybe there should be a tail person at all times and a head person leading.

There will always be something not going to planned its just the way it is though.

[TK6790]

Gas Money

Hey everyone... Thank you ALL for contributing to the Gas fund. I have sent Jim a check today for $175.00, which is everything that was collected to help with the trash cleanup trip. Below is the list of contributions.

Payment From Adam R $10.00
Payment From Allen S $20.00
Payment From Zach S $ 5.00
Payment From Joseph S $10.00
Payment From Marc R $30.00
Payment From William G $20.00
Payment From Matt C $10.00
Payment From Erik C $20.00
Payment From Tony Y $20.00
Payment From Andrew W $15.00
Payment From Diane B $15.00


PICTURES - I will post some pictures of what was found tomorrow. I know alot of you have been asking and I appreciate the patience.

[TK6790]

I would not be interested in doing that in lieu of a desert shoot. I can shoot at a range any time. We would still be subject to range rules, even if it was a private event and things were run a little looser.

I totally agree. Getting out of town is one of the main reasons why this shoot is so much fun.

I enjoy meeting out in the middle of nowhere. Doesn't have to be the Black Rock Desert (where we were), but there are plenty of open areas in California and Nevada if you drive far enough.

However, staying in CA defeats the whole purpose of an OLL shoot like this one. The whoel reason we choose Nevada is to forget about SB23 and Roberti-Roos. In addition, while we all know this is an OLL shoot and the F/A toys are just a bonus, there is no way any of those weapons will cross the state line into CA.


But you do make an interesting suggestion..... There is no reason why OTHER shoot weekends can't be planned during the year... If someone wants to plan quick, local weekend shoots, that would be awesome.

[ColdSteel]

Anyone seriously thinking of doing a southern Nevada shoot?

[knucklehead 61]

The People
- Guns are cool. OLL's in their full glory are excellent, and full auto is a dream come true for many of us. However, I had 10 times more fun talking and hanging out with everyone than I did shooting.
- I would totally be game for more shooting/camping trips, especially in beautiful California, when and where the weather is gorgeous. I don't need to shoot FA or have a detachable magazine in order to have a good time. Calgunners are awesome wherever they are.

i fully agree with you toolbox X
i took WAY too many guns (11 total , along with about 3000 rounds more ammo than i needed!) i didn't know about any movies, poker games, or even campfire storytime until i read about them in the review forums. i wish i had spent more time walking around taliking with you guys. what a cool bunch of guys & gals that were there. we need to set up a cal shoot where motorhomes can park.