Front Sight?

[locosway]

As I recall there was one of the big USPSA competitors that had this happen and did some permanent damage to his support hand. I don't recall who.

It's happened a few times to different people. I did see one post with pictures, and the damage was permanent. Depending on how your hand is and how the round goes off in the open breech, you likely could lose a finger or suffer permanent nerve damage.

My main issue is people will take a class and then praise it as gospel without doing further training or research. Front Sight has some good things they teach, but also some bad. People need to understand that because they pay money to go there and get treated good, doesn't make the training perfect or even top notch.

[jlbflyboy172]

I agree with Locoway but in just about everything in life, we have to learn to take the bad with the good. Nothing is perfect. No training organization, be it Front Sight or Glock or any other does everything perfectly. I think most adults are capable of receiving some training and then passing it through their own filters of what works for them. You retain and use some and discard other pieces. I don't recall anyone on this thread stating that the Front Sight training was gospel. Many have gone, myself included, and have learned a lot. For the money I paid, I felt I got a very good value. I learned alot. Do I follow everything they taught verbatim? No. But there were some that were trash talking that have not been. Do your own research. They are numerous threads on this forum with reviews and about 95% of them are EXTREMELY positive. Considering the number of people they put through that school, they must be doing a lot of things right.

I recently wrote a review of my experience that also offered up some suggestions on how to make your experience better if you were planning to go and had not been before. Here is a link to that thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=493661

[Sturnovik]

If you don't let the slide go forward the ejector is not a problem. If the technique is done as taught, it isn't a problem. But I agree, it is probably safer to let if fall to the ground. The fact of the matter is this is a very rare occurrence and I don't think has ever happened at FS.

One consideration is whether there is more risk in catching the round in your support hand or having everyone on the line bending over to recover their ammo.

I dont want to sound stupid, but I dont understand what there teaching, just to catch the brass for the sake of catching it or just to be covert? I'm not dissing the technique, I'm trying to understand why they brought it up, I've seen people do that before but yea....

In any case FS and TFTT are good bets, I'm going for it!

[Clee]

Train with whoever you want to but I'll repeat my first line of my original post "USE YOUR MONEY WISELY." There are a lot of trainers out there some great, some good, some mediocre, some out right bad. I'm sure you'll learn something at FS and I'm not claiming they are out right bad.

Let me ask you if you needed business advice who would you prefer to get advice from- the local high school business teacher, the local university professor, or a businessman like Steve Jobs or Warren Buffett? That is my point.

Each one can give you info, the questions is that info based on theory or is it based on reality? The names I mentioned all have been shot at, some have even been shot. What they teach is based on what they experienced. They can tell you why they use that method, why it works, where it might be flawed etc. Let me give you an example Paul Howe.

From what I remember from reading (I will be seeing him early next year so I'll confirm if I remember reading this correctly), he has a drill where you shoot 5 rounds in the chest near the spine and the last in the head. At the time this drill came out, the industry was still teaching double taps and then moving onn to the next target. Well while his time in Somalia he was Double tapping bad guys and they weren't falling down. He'd shoot guys 7 times and still not fall. He came up with that drill so that you could move beyond thinking double tapping is the answer. Kyle lamb has a similar drill involving multiple targets. These drills were based on their experience.

Google any of those names I mentioned in my previous post and type AAR after their name and read everyone's reports. I've yet to read any report that disparage any of them. All I've read have praised them. None have Drill sergeant attitudes, in fact most if not all of them don't have egos (from what I've read). If you find a trainer that does walk away. He's probably FOS. The names I've mentioned are professional and act accordingly. If they end up yelling at you then you had it coming- you must have violated a safety rule or something egregious like that.

One thing training with some of the names I mentioned, you get some great stories that would either open your eyes or make you die laughing. I hear Super Dave Harrington is a riot. Vickers comes up with some hilarious one liners.

As for AA Shooter suggesting Tactical Response. Just take a look at these vids and you can make up your own mind. (*EDIT* I'll let you know I think this guy is a clown.)


Oh BTW Tac Repsonse took down this vid after all the heat they got from it.

His country bumpkin response after everyone in the industry ripped him a new one:



You can google James Yeager some more and you can decide what you think of him. *edit* google his time in Iraq. I'll let you decide whether that is the guy you want to learn from.

As for the guy who thinks Team sergarnt is some internet commando, I don't know TS and I'm not a member of Professionalsoldier.com. With a little diiging on his site you can get his real name. If you don't want to do that google Dealiest Warrior fraud and look up one of the articles. TS ,as the owner of PS.com, his name will show up, as he was the one who outed that fraud. You can then google his real name and check out his resume. I think he knows what he is talking about.

[Sturnovik]

I'm assuming the heat was that they have a photographer in front of the firing line.....thats not good. But I'm not starting into that, I just want to focus on the schools.

In any case I'll re-look them over and think about it. The other Sacramento place is a good price and got great reviews too.

[epilepticninja]

Cupping your hand over the ejection port and rotating the firearm to catch the round in your weak/support hand. This is dangerous as the ejector can strike the primer and cause the round to detonate, which will damage your hand.

Glock goes over this in their classes and tells people to NOT do this, but FS being the hero they are still teaches it.

FS isn't the only one teaching that. I actually do it all the time with my G21, but after reading your comment, I think I'll stop. And I am a FS life member. Looking forward to taking a couple of classes next year. I have a friend who teaches here in the Sacto area that goes all the time to FS, and he loves it.

[AAShooter]

Although I think putting a photographer down range is not the best choice, it is not uncommon to have people "downrange" in advanced classes.

For example, we did a number of exercises in the Grey Group training with well-known, well-respected instructor that put us down range from the classic 180 degree firing line. It has value but personally I think it is overused in the name of advanced training.

CLEE--thanks for posting that video . . . it was looking for it and could not find it.

[Sturnovik]

Although I think putting a photographer down range is not the best choice, it is not uncommon to have people "downrange" in advanced classes.

For example, we did a number of exercises in the Grey Group training with well-known, well-respected instructor that put us down range from the classic 180 degree firing line. It has value but personally I think it is overused in the name of advanced training.

Yea I'm not knocking the school what so ever, its there training, I just noticed it. In any case, TFTT, Tactical Response, and FS are the top ones I can see at least in my area.

[Clee]

Although I think putting a photographer down range is not the best choice, it is not uncommon to have people "downrange" in advanced classes.

For example, we did a number of exercises in the Grey Group training with well-known, well-respected instructor that put us down range from the classic 180 degree firing line. It has value but personally I think it is overused in the name of advanced training.

What instructor was that? I'll make a note not to train with him.

In any case, TFTT, Tactical Response, and FS are the top ones I can see at least in my area.

Sturnvik I wasn't promoting TR and was promoting against it. James Yeager can teach you how to panic and get your team killed. I've edited my other post to reflect this opinion.

[LuckyV]

Thanks for all the useful discussion

Really. So many options, so much fervor. I have learned alot following along.

[USMC 82-86]

Train with whoever you want to but I'll repeat my first line of my original post "USE YOUR MONEY WISELY." There are a lot of trainers out there some great, some good, some mediocre, some out right bad. I'm sure you'll learn something at FS and I'm not claiming they are out right bad.

Let me ask you if you needed business advice who would you prefer to get advice from- the local high school business teacher, the local university professor, or a businessman like Steve Jobs or Warren Buffett? That is my point.

Each one can give you info, the questions is that info based on theory or is it based on reality? The names I mentioned all have been shot at, some have even been shot. What they teach is based on what they experienced. They can tell you why they use that method, why it works, where it might be flawed etc. Let me give you an example Paul Howe.

From what I remember from reading (I will be seeing him early next year so I'll confirm if I remember reading this correctly), he has a drill where you shoot 5 rounds in the chest near the spine and the last in the head. At the time this drill came out, the industry was still teaching double taps and then moving onn to the next target. Well while his time in Somalia he was Double tapping bad guys and they weren't falling down. He'd shoot guys 7 times and still not fall. He came up with that drill so that you could move beyond thinking double tapping is the answer. Kyle lamb has a similar drill involving multiple targets. These drills were based on their experience.

Google any of those names I mentioned in my previous post and type AAR after their name and read everyone's reports. I've yet to read any report that disparage any of them. All I've read have praised them. None have Drill sergeant attitudes, in fact most if not all of them don't have egos (from what I've read). If you find a trainer that does walk away. He's probably FOS. The names I've mentioned are professional and act accordingly. If they end up yelling at you then you had it coming- you must have violated a safety rule or something egregious like that.

One thing training with some of the names I mentioned, you get some great stories that would either open your eyes or make you die laughing. I hear Super Dave Harrington is a riot. Vickers comes up with some hilarious one liners.

As for AA Shooter suggesting Tactical Response. Just take a look at these vids and you can make up your own mind.



Oh BTW Tac Repsonse took down this vid after all the heat they got from it.

His country bumpkin response after everyone in the industry ripped him a new one:



You can google James Yeager some more and you can decide what you think of him. He has been shoot at in Iraq. I'll let you decide whether that is the guy you want to learn from.

As for the guy who thinks Team sergarnt is some internet commando, I don't know TS and I'm not a member of Professionalsoldier.com. With a little diiging on his site you can get his real name. If you don't want to do that google Dealiest Warrior fraud and look up one of the articles. TS ,as the owner of PS.com, his name will show up, as he was the one who outed that fraud. You can then google his real name and check out his resume. I think he knows what he is talking about.

I want to say I am not defending this guy or his training. I don't know who he is I will check him out later so I will know for sure. I will say I attended a nearly three week hostage training course along with members of the 75th Rangers and SF members while in the Marines. The primary instructors were British SAS. The first demo of a room entry and seizure we witnessed was under live fire with real people sitting in chairs as the hostage, with cardboard targets as the hostage takers.

There were no injuries to any participants. Their belief was that if they trained in this manner it was as close to the real stress of combat as they could come and it placed a real emphasis on trigger discipline. They were correct but this does go against everything you learn with regards to gun safety, teaching this way in a civilian setting is not a smart idea. As for military training it may not seem smart to others either, but more people die during training exercises in the military than most are aware of simply because of the level of stress and reality of the training. Training for real encounters is dangerous and people can die and that is a fact. Most public training facilities that provide good training are still limited by legal action that they can face if someone is injured or killed. That does not mean that good training is not possible in a civilian setting. The training that is conducted in the military is as safe as they can make it and still be realistic and it is understood that life is lost during training from time to time but the training goes on and they try to learn from the incident. Just a thought not all training is the same.

[AAShooter]

Thunder Ranch, Oregon is just across the border is another respected training school.

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

[AAShooter]

Here is an interesting video on Mr. Yeagar. He discusses his background as part of this audition video:

http://youtu.be/Y7VzGPdih8c

[Clee]

I want to say I am not defending this guy or his training. I don't know who he is I will check him out later so I will know for sure. I will say I attended a nearly three week hostage training course along with members of the 75th Rangers and SF members while in the Marines. The primary instructors were British SAS. The first demo of a room entry and seizure we witnessed was under live fire with real people sitting in chairs as the hostage, with cardboard targets as the hostage takers.

There were no injuries to any participants. Their belief was that if they trained in this manner it was as close to the real stress of combat as they could come and it placed a real emphasis on trigger discipline. They were correct but this does go against everything you learn with regards to gun safety, teaching this way in a civilian setting is not a smart idea. As for military training it may not seem smart to others either, but more people die during training exercises in the military than most are aware of simply because of the level of stress and reality of the training. Training for real encounters is dangerous and people can die and that is a fact. Most public training facilities that provide good training are still limited by legal action that they can face if someone is injured or killed. That does not mean that good training is not possible in a civilian setting. The training that is conducted in the military is as safe as they can make it and still be realistic and it is understood that life is lost during training from time to time but the training goes on and they try to learn from the incident. Just a thought not all training is the same.

My post was not praising TR, Ive edited that post that you quoted to clarify it a bit. You must have quoted before I finished the edit. I do not recommend TR at all. That vid is dangerous, stupid and arrogant. His response is straight up retarded.

I agree with your post. Many SF and SOF guys get shot in training and die. If some civilian poser (like myself and most others on this board) has the arrogance to think they have the same skill as those guys, they need to get their head kicked in. I would want to train as close to reality as I can without endangering others. So that means no guy standing next to my target. Mistakes happen. I saw this at a Paul Howe AAR on another forum:



Take a good look at the photo. Apparently the girl in the hostage target is Howe's daughter. Look at the right target. She's dead. This is from a swat/leo/gov't only marksmen course. These dudes aren't supposed to make those mistake but they do. Thats life.

The SAS and our elite teams train together all the time and trust each other so they trust each other not to shoot each other during training exercises. But accidents still happen even with those guys.

[AAShooter]

-just another thought. Most of us would be severely impacted should an "accident" occur where we shot another student while attending the class for personal enrichment. A lawsuit for wrongful death or serious bodily injury can get very expensive and most insurance probably would not cover it.

It's a little different when you are doing it as part of a job.