FFL

[Mad Jax]

Yes, very nice OB. Awaiting further information so I can let the boycott begin

[Ron-Solo]

Boy, take a little time off and take the wife to Disneyland and people start talking all kinds of trash about you.

Plain and simple, there is not a statute to say it is a civil matter, but it clearly isn't a theft by definition. The FFL may be flakey, or may not, depending on the credibility of the OP, but there is nothing to show the intent to deprive the OP of his property. Theft is a specific intent crime and that element is necessary to legally establish a CRIME.

I've been in LE for 32 years and counting. It is clearly a civil matter, and if you could establish intent, it could also be a criminal matter, but based on the information, nothing establishes intent.

Being a flakey FFL isn't a crime. There are certain things they MUST receive to ship a firearm. If they don't follow the rules, they can lose their license and face criminal charges. I've had people insist they've faxed me things but I did not receive them, usually because they sent them to the wrong number.

Rant: ON

I don't tell plumbers how to fix pipes, I don't tell computer gurus how to fix computers, and I get annoyed when people with no LE training tell me I don't know the law. I can read a book on plumbing or computers, but that doesn't make me an expert, or even correct. Go figure.

When people ask a LE related question, I give an honest answer based on my 32 years of experience as a patrol deputy, field training officer, field sergeant, watch sergeant, partol lieutenant, watch commander, and departmental instructor. I think I have the experience to back up what I'm saying. None of my responses are based on personal feelings.

Rant: OFF

FYI, I offered to assist the OP since I'm in the Riverside area, but have not heard from him. Hopefully OceanBob was able to get results.

[Seesm]

Ummm wow?

[kermit315]

Boy, take a little time off and take the wife to Disneyland and people start talking all kinds of trash about you.

Who is talking trash? Hope you dont mean me, because I specifically said I didnt think you had been back to the thread to answer my request.

Plain and simple, there is not a statute to say it is a civil matter, but it clearly isn't a theft by definition. The FFL may be flakey, or may not, depending on the credibility of the OP, but there is nothing to show the intent to deprive the OP of his property. Theft is a specific intent crime and that element is necessary to legally establish a CRIME.

I posted the CPC. I found two examples that could very easily be applied to this situation. BTW, the statute I linked doesnt make one mention of intent, however I do understand that it is necessary. I believe intent is established when they lied about shipping the gun to the owner 2 times over 2 different months. It wasnt a mistake, they straight out lied.

I've been in LE for 32 years and counting. It is clearly a civil matter, and if you could establish intent, it could also be a criminal matter, but based on the information, nothing establishes intent.

You wouldnt know (intent) without investigating, and you are starting off saying that you wouldnt investigate...so where does that leave somebody in this situation? What if the FFL sold the gun? What if the FFL parted out the gun? Its not the victims responsibility to hand you an open and shut case, its your responsibility to investigate it, then inform the victim of what you find, and pursue as necessary.

Being a flakey FFL isn't a crime. There are certain things they MUST receive to ship a firearm. If they don't follow the rules, they can lose their license and face criminal charges. I've had people insist they've faxed me things but I did not receive them, usually because they sent them to the wrong number.

Being a flaky FFL can be a crime, if those little things done over time become enough to aggravate the ATF, and they decide to charge you. Simple mistakes here and there, I think we all agree, stuff happens. Patterns of misconduct, which at this point havent been established against this FFL, show either inability to follow the law, or willingness to break it ( think PPT fees for this example, but its not the only one).

Rant: ON

I don't tell plumbers how to fix pipes, I don't tell computer gurus how to fix computers, and I get annoyed when people with no LE training tell me I don't know the law. I can read a book on plumbing or computers, but that doesn't make me an expert, or even correct. Go figure.

When people ask a LE related question, I give an honest answer based on my 32 years of experience as a patrol deputy, field training officer, field sergeant, watch sergeant, partol lieutenant, watch commander, and departmental instructor. I think I have the experience to back up what I'm saying. None of my responses are based on personal feelings.

Your honest answer isnt necessarily always right, thats why I specifically asked for the statute to be posted. You keep bringing up intent for this situation, however you would never know either way unless the report was investigated. If the FFL sold the gun, would that be enough intent to deprive for you, or would it still be a civil matter?

What is it when somebody refuses to return the property of another....what word fits that definition in the law?

Rant: OFF

FYI, I offered to assist the OP since I'm in the Riverside area, but have not heard from him. Hopefully OceanBob was able to get results.

I know you did, and I thought that was very classy. None of this is personal, so please dont take it that way. Like I said before, I am not perfect, nobody is. Reading the CPC quoted above, what am I missing?

[Oceanbob]

Update number 3

As arranged last night I called at 10 AM this morning to get the 'tracking number/confirmation number' from the owner of the Riverside FFL.

(I was told the weapon was shipped last week and the number was 'In the owners car', and he had just left the Store for the day) (Previously a couple of months ago, the number was in the owners office, which was locked) haha

Anyway...I called a few minutes ago and the owner of the Riverside FFL picked up the phone:

1. He said he talked to his lawyer this morning and wouldn't be giving anyone the tracking number.

2. He assured me however the weapon would be arriving TODAY at the San Franciso FFL location without question.

3. I asked if he sold the gun out from under Lawrence...."NO, certainly not" was his reply.

4. He said when the weapon arrived and the 'Buyer' Flaked on purchasing it, he offered to buy if from Lawrence. Lawrence said he just wanted it returned. He still insisted that the San Franciso FFL FAILED to supply him with the needed CDFL number required for him to legally ship the weapon back. I reminded him that the San Franciso FFL has sent at least 3 FAXED copies of their FFL with that number plainly written on those copies...!...he denied getting those previous Faxes months ago; I asked why not just make a call to get the number.?...he had no answer.

5. I also reminded him that the San Francisco FFL at my request FAXED a new copy with the CDFL number LAST NIGHT and I had confirmed with his employee via phone that indeed that FAX did arrive. He said yes, he was looking at it now.

6. But again, he insisted the weapon would TODAY at the FFL in San Francisco an this matter would be resolved.

7. I gotta go to work....and the San Francisco FFL doens't open until 11.

Later tonight I will call and see if Lawrence's HK P2000 has arrived or not.



Wow..what a run-around.

Bob

I got home from work and called the San Francico FFL..What a nice bunch. The girl that's helping me (Colleen) said her packages from UPS, FED-EX and the USPO had arrived and she made it a point to search for Lawence's P2000 HK from the Riverside FFL.

No luck.

She did mention that we should give it one more day; sometimes the USPO takes two days.

She told me to call back end of business tonight for an update. (Friday the 10th..tonight)

My personal opinion is the Riverside FFL had been lying and stalling.
(He sold or lost the weapon; he wanted to buy it from Lawrence, so my guess is he sold it; Lawrence being far away and unable to do anything)

Notice I said the words "My personal Opinion" *1

I will update later tonight..!

Bob

*1 (personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right)

[kermit315]

I got home from work and called the San Francico FFL..What a nice bunch. The girl that's helping me (Colleen) said her packages from UPS, FED-EX and the USPO had arrived and she made it a point to search for Lawence's P2000 HK from the Riverside FFL.

No luck.

She did mention that we should give it one more day; sometimes the USPO takes two days.

She told me to call back end of business tonight for an update. (Friday the 10th..tonight)

My personal opinion is the Riverside FFL had been lying and stalling.
(He sold or lost the weapon; he wanted to buy it from Lawrence, so my guess is he sold it; Lawrence being far away and unable to do anything)

Notice I said the words "My personal Opinion" *1

I will update later tonight..!

Bob

*1 (personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right)

Thank you for doing the legwork on this Bob. This is one of the reasons why CGN is a great place.

That and me getting to argue with Ron....

[stitchnicklas]

well this pot is almost boiling....
.
.
.
.
.this weekends meal will be boiled liar on the hoof..

[robcoe]

I got home from work and called the San Francico FFL..What a nice bunch. The girl that's helping me (Colleen) said her packages from UPS, FED-EX and the USPO had arrived and she made it a point to search for Lawence's P2000 HK from the Riverside FFL.

No luck.

She did mention that we should give it one more day; sometimes the USPO takes two days.

She told me to call back end of business tonight for an update. (Friday the 10th..tonight)

My personal opinion is the Riverside FFL had been lying and stalling.
(He sold or lost the weapon; he wanted to buy it from Lawrence, so my guess is he sold it; Lawrence being far away and unable to do anything)

Notice I said the words "My personal Opinion" *1

I will update later tonight..!

Bob

*1 (personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right)

I am trying to be supprised, but it's not working.

BTW good on you for stepping up and helping the op out.

cant wait to hear how this turns out.

[bearj]

come on guys give us the name of the riverside FFL. I'm having a rifle shipped to a FFL in riverside and I really really need to know if its the same one! There is no point hiding the name of the Riverside FFL. This thread is pissing me off in so many ways. First, the riverside FFL is jacked up and no one should do business with them. Also i'm frustrated because no one has posted the name of the riverside FFL, thus we don't know were not to do business. Almost seems like they don't want us doing business with any FFL in riverside.

[stix213]

Almost seems like they don't want us doing business with any FFL in riverside.

I'd agree. Without outing the specific FFL this thread is certainly keeping Calgunners away from all Riverside FFL's and causing unnecessary harm and collateral damage to the good ones.

[dieselpower]

Boy, take a little time off and take the wife to Disneyland and people start talking all kinds of trash about you.

Plain and simple, there is not a statute to say it is a civil matter, but it clearly isn't a theft by definition. The FFL may be flakey, or may not, depending on the credibility of the OP, but there is nothing to show the intent to deprive the OP of his property. Theft is a specific intent crime and that element is necessary to legally establish a CRIME.

I've been in LE for 32 years and counting. It is clearly a civil matter, and if you could establish intent, it could also be a criminal matter, but based on the information, nothing establishes intent.

Being a flakey FFL isn't a crime. There are certain things they MUST receive to ship a firearm. If they don't follow the rules, they can lose their license and face criminal charges. I've had people insist they've faxed me things but I did not receive them, usually because they sent them to the wrong number.

Rant: ON

I don't tell plumbers how to fix pipes, I don't tell computer gurus how to fix computers, and I get annoyed when people with no LE training tell me I don't know the law. I can read a book on plumbing or computers, but that doesn't make me an expert, or even correct. Go figure.

When people ask a LE related question, I give an honest answer based on my 32 years of experience as a patrol deputy, field training officer, field sergeant, watch sergeant, partol lieutenant, watch commander, and departmental instructor. I think I have the experience to back up what I'm saying. None of my responses are based on personal feelings.

Rant: OFF

FYI, I offered to assist the OP since I'm in the Riverside area, but have not heard from him. Hopefully OceanBob was able to get results.

I am not trashing you. I am showing the failure in your logic as used by MANY LEA...not just you.

I am not some guy who read a book on plumbing and is telling a plumber what to do. I am a guy who was mentored by a 30 year Retired FBI Investigator, 20 Year Private Investigator. He taught me how to investigate. If I were to have answered a phone call and said, "its probably...blah blah blah.." that 68 year old man would have beat me to death with a pencil.

You can not listen to one side of a story, then make up a good excuse for the other guys side of it without hearing it. You don't know what this is yet.

An Investigator DOESN'T prove intent...a Prosecutor does. An Investigator determines if intent is possible based on all the facts. Then hands those facts to a Prosecutor who decides if there is enough to charge....and prove.

Based on what was said here, I could show intent. At the very least an LEO should have talked to this FFL. The ATF should have also talked to this guy. Based on that interview you go farther.... but that didn't even happen.

As I said, I hope the ATF is taking this serious and they have actually opened a case on this FFL. They just blew off the OP as to not open the investigation up to the public. This FFL is grossly negligent at best, but could be dirty as all heck. Where there is smoke, there is fire. He might be selling off the books to criminals..sure I could be wrong.. You can't even prove me wrong using your technique in investigations.

[zman]

I got home from work and called the San Francico FFL..What a nice bunch. The girl that's helping me (Colleen) said her packages from UPS, FED-EX and the USPO had arrived and she made it a point to search for Lawence's P2000 HK from the Riverside FFL.

No luck.

She did mention that we should give it one more day; sometimes the USPO takes two days.

She told me to call back end of business tonight for an update. (Friday the 10th..tonight)

My personal opinion is the Riverside FFL had been lying and stalling.
(He sold or lost the weapon; he wanted to buy it from Lawrence, so my guess is he sold it; Lawrence being far away and unable to do anything)

Notice I said the words "My personal Opinion" *1

I will update later tonight..!

Bob

*1 (personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right)

It's gonna be a nail biter folks!

[Ron-Solo]

I am not trashing you. I am showing the failure in your logic as used by MANY LEA...not just you.

Well, these are your words, not mine:

Then why do you accept YOUR assumed and imagined EXCUSE in this situation??????????????

No one has EVEN talked to the FFL yet you IN YOUR MIND make up a plausible story allowing this to be a civil matter...

I'm sorry that is offensive to me Ron. When we as a community allow LEO to make excuses for suspects without even talking to them.

Do I understand the law Ron? Based on what you have said, I can investigate circles around you with my limited understanding of the law...I don't make up phantom excuses for a possible crime before talking to both parties...you have NO IDEA what will come out of that FFL's mouth when you question him...yet "its a civil matter" and "I don't understand the law".

IMHO, Thats twice you have shown a lack of fore-thought and a propensity to do nothing as a policy of Office [on these forums]. I can not remember what our last argument was about, but its seems to me it was just like this.

I am not some guy who read a book on plumbing and is telling a plumber what to do. I am a guy who was mentored by a 30 year Retired FBI Investigator, 20 Year Private Investigator. He taught me how to investigate. If I were to have answered a phone call and said, "its probably...blah blah blah.." that 68 year old man would have beat me to death with a pencil.

You can not listen to one side of a story, then make up a good excuse for the other guys side of it without hearing it. You don't know what this is yet.





An Investigator DOESN'T prove intent...a Prosecutor does. An Investigator determines if intent is possible based on all the facts. Then hands those facts to a Prosecutor who decides if there is enough to charge....and prove.

A case doesn't get reviewed by a prosecutor unless the elements can be proven. I know, I've personally filed cases with the DA and City Attorney. If the investigator doesn't prove all the elements of the crime exist, the DA rejects the case


Based on what was said here, I could show intent. At the very least an LEO should have talked to this FFL. The ATF should have also talked to this guy. Based on that interview you go farther.... but that didn't even happen.

As I said, I hope the ATF is taking this serious and they have actually opened a case on this FFL. They just blew off the OP as to not open the investigation up to the public. This FFL is grossly negligent at best, but could be dirty as all heck. Where there is smoke, there is fire. He might be selling off the books to criminals..sure I could be wrong.. You can't even prove me wrong using your technique in investigations.

You are jumping to conclusions without any facts.

Your comments show how much you don't know about law enforcement. Twenty years as a private investigator means only that you have experience as a private investigator, it doesn't equate to the same level of experience in law enforcement Apples and Oranges. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, they're just different.

Instead, you come in and say you can investigate circles around me. You don't know me and my experience and expertise. A statement like that is inappropriate and is offensive.

Rather than stoop to your level, I'm done with this thread.

The basic element of theft is not present, and that is intent.

[Oceanbob]

Update Number 4...the Weapon has been returned to the San Franciso FFL..!!!

I got home from work and called the San Francico FFL..What a nice bunch. The girl that's helping me (Colleen) said her packages from UPS, FED-EX and the USPO had arrived and she made it a point to search for Lawence's P2000 HK from the Riverside FFL.

No luck.

She did mention that we should give it one more day; sometimes the USPO takes two days.

She told me to call back end of business tonight for an update. (Friday the 10th..tonight)

My personal opinion is the Riverside FFL had been lying and stalling.
(He sold or lost the weapon; he wanted to buy it from Lawrence, so my guess is he sold it; Lawrence being far away and unable to do anything)

Notice I said the words "My personal Opinion" *1

I will update later tonight..!

Bob

*1 (personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right)

The gun arrived late this afternoon from the Riverside FFL.!..

All that is left is for Lawrence to do another DROS and wait 10 days and get his HK P2000 home for Xmas.!...

Lawrence will be posting some information tonight; He appreciates all the support our 'Community' of like minded guns owners gave him.

I will say that the San Franciso FFL was above and beyond the call of duty; helping me out by taking 15 phone calls; making phone calls on my behalf; faxing paperwork to the Riverside FFL and following up with phone calls...wow...and they haven't generated a single PENNY from Lawrence (in fact they don't know Lawrence at all..!)...

The name of this FFL in San Franciso is:


City Arms
90 Eureka Sq
Ste D
Pacifica, CA 94044

(650) 738-6896

https://www.city-arms.com/

What a fantastic company...people are friendly and they have a 5 star rating on YELP http://www.yelp.com/biz/city-arms-pacifica

The person that did all the free help with this Situation is named:

Colleen.....Colleen at CITY ARMS...phone (650) 738-6896

PLEASE CALL HER AND THANK HER....PLEASE SEND HER SOME FLOWERS...

PLEASE TAKE HER TO LUNCH...! (I'am serious.! )...I told her the

CALGUNS.NET group would notice and Thank City Arms for being so helpful getting one of our members guns rightfully returned to him.

So don't let me down..make a call, send a note, flowers, drop by and bring some pizza...take COLLEEN TO LUNCH..

I just told Lawrence his weapon was now available; he will be posting some info later tonight.

Most problems can be solved with a Project Manager. This is proof.

Bob

[shmeare]

i bought a few guns from City Arms, very good prices and its local.