GPal (Gunpal) problems?

[gunblobber]

It has been acknowledged by kestryll, and even claimed by Mr Cannon, that Mr cannon was / is at least a part owner / founder of geovario.com and geovario.com hosts both gpal and calguns.

The two servers are on the same subnet, and as i stated probably in the same roomof the same building.

I'll try to distill this:

If person X owns company A and part owns (and was a founder) of company B and company B hosts company A's and C's web servers, then there IS a connection between company C and C through company B and person X.

The connections between CGN, CGF, and Ben Cannon / GPal have been hashed out at quite some length (please see the "GPal Info" link in my sig -- I have been trying to distill data from all over the Internet and put it in to a somewhat manageable format) and, given the statements by Mr. Miyabara-McCaskey, the GeoVario link is really the least interesting of all the connections.

Mr. Miyabara-McCaskey, primary owner of GeoVario, stated that the CalGuns servers are physically separate from the GPal servers and from other GeoVario clients' servers. They may be in adjacent cabinets for all we know, but separate is separate. Any sites hosted by GeoVario are likely to be on close subnets. That's just how those datacenters work.

It is not yet clear to what extent Mr. Cannon still has an ownership interest in GeoVario, but Mr. Miyabara-McCaskey seems to have implied that it is little or nothing, and that he has little or nothing to do with GeoVario any more, aside from GPal's being a client of GeoVario hosting. Further clarification on this point would be welcome.

Mr. Miyabara-McCaskey *did* state quite firmly that *all* of the CGN and GPal servers are owned by GeoVario, not by Ben Cannon.... and he seemed to say (although I would love some clarification) that the CGN raffles were held as after-the-fact reimbursement to Mr. Cannon for services and/or goods that he had previously paid for. If that is true, it has major implications for CGN and Ben Cannon, although it's not directly relevant to the GPal situation.

[torsf]

The two servers are on the same subnet, and as i stated probably in the same roomof the same building.

Red herring. For example - when twitter has a DOS attack, some of the other websites hosted in the same facility are sometimes taken down as well. Does that mean there is a secret link between twitter and the other websites? No. They are just hosted in the same facility.

[cadillacmike]

Agreed on most blobber, However mcubed only stated that cgal and gpals servers are separate from other geovario servers, not each other, not that that makes much of a difference.

This reamins unanswered and it is far more significant:

"It is not yet clear to what extent Mr. Cannon still has an ownership interest in GeoVario"

And the remarks about the sweepstakes raise further questions IMO.

I hope it ends up resolved with all customers getting all the monies they are due, but even then, the fallout will be extensive and long-lasting.

torsf: agreed, it is not the physical proximity of a couple web servers but the ownersip relationships between the various entities that are significant. Again hope for the best, but plan for something less than that.

[Kestryll]

There is an interesting 2 paragraph in that post.



I thought the raffles were run under the presumption that the proceeds would be used to procure equipment for Calguns that Ben would own. Not to pay off Ben's past debts.

Am I missing something here?

As I was given to understand it, the sweepstakes, not raffles, were run to cover part of the costs incurred by purchasing equipment for the servers.
The initial costs to purchase this equipment came from CDGlobal as the immediate need arose, the sweepstakes were used to recoup those expenses. The debts being paid were the fronted costs of the equipment.

[gunblobber]

As I was given to understand it, the sweepstakes, not raffles, were run to cover part of the costs incurred by purchasing equipment for the servers.
The initial costs to purchase this equipment came from CDGlobal as the immediate need arose, the sweepstakes were used to recoup those expenses. The debts being paid were the fronted costs of the equipment.

From what I've seen (as an outsider with no involvement in Calguns prior to this GPal business) this information was not exactly well-disclosed. E.g. here:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3330926&postcount=22

so this is for another server?

Several, plus costs to run 'em. GV eats quite a bit of money each month hosting CGN at no charge.

Personally, I would be angry if I had bought a ticket and then learned afterwards that, despite appearances to the contrary, my money was not being used to buy a new server, but rather being used to pay for a server that had already been bought. Although from a strict accounting standpoint, there isn't much difference, on a gut emotional level, there is a difference. Raising money for a cause doesn't sound as good if the cause has already spent itself into a hole. I can't really explain it, but that's my take on it.

The ownership of the servers (whether bought before or after the raffle, er, sweepstakes) is another issue. CGN members were told that their donated money would go to buy a server. But that server is now owned by another company? At least when it seemed to be owned personally by Ben Cannon, it could be said "Oh, this is CGN's server, but Ben just owns it for liability purposes" (which was the claim at the time, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever).

Don't get me wrong, I understand that GeoVario is giving CGN a good deal on the hosting, maybe even doing it effectively for free. In no way am I saying that GeoVario shouldn't be compensated. What I am saying, is that CGN members donated money for the express purpose to buy a server (or "several"), which server was subsequently given to GeoVario, which server is presumably still used for CGN hosting, but the cost of the hardware itself (which is what the donated money supposedly went to) has gone to offset some of GeoVario's hosting costs. Or something.

The accounting just gets really complicated, and I doubt that anybody can really explain "where the money went" at this point, which, again, if I were a ticket buyer, would really make me mad. (Not to mention, in at least one of these "sweepstakes" I saw it stated that Mr. Cannon didn't even know how much money came in. Now that is just horrible.) You should be able to say exactly where that money went, and that statement should agree fully and 100% with what the CGN members understood when they originally made the donations. I have no idea if this is a legal issue or not, but even more important, it is a trust issue and a "keep the donations coming in" issue. You're relying on donations and therefore on your members' trust. If they don't believe you when you say the money is going to a certain thing, don't be surprised if they don't donate. Simple as that.

[Kestryll]

The pentagon can't account for BILLIONS used (some would say wasted) in Iraq, but that is another story...

So are you looking to just throw random crap out until you get this one closed too?

I'd prefer not to close it but this kind of post that adds nothing to the discussion does not help.

[thedrickel]

From what I've seen (as an outsider with no involvement in Calguns prior to this GPal business) this information was not exactly well-disclosed. E.g. here:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3330926&postcount=22

Personally, I would be angry if I had bought a ticket and then learned afterwards that, despite appearances to the contrary, my money was not being used to buy a new server, but rather being used to pay for a server that had already been bought. Although from a strict accounting standpoint, there isn't much difference, on a gut emotional level, there is a difference. Raising money for a cause doesn't sound as good if the cause has already spent itself into a hole. I can't really explain it, but that's my take on it.

The ownership of the servers (whether bought before or after the raffle, er, sweepstakes) is another issue. CGN members were told that their donated money would go to buy a server. But that server is now owned by another company? At least when it seemed to be owned personally by Ben Cannon, it could be said "Oh, this is CGN's server, but Ben just owns it for liability purposes" (which was the claim at the time, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever).

Don't get me wrong, I understand that GeoVario is giving CGN a good deal on the hosting, maybe even doing it effectively for free. In no way am I saying that GeoVario shouldn't be compensated. What I am saying, is that CGN members donated money for the express purpose to buy a server (or "several"), which server was subsequently given to GeoVario, which server is presumably still used for CGN hosting, but the cost of the hardware itself (which is what the donated money supposedly went to) has gone to offset some of GeoVario's hosting costs. Or something.

The accounting just gets really complicated, and I doubt that anybody can really explain "where the money went" at this point, which, again, if I were a ticket buyer, would really make me mad. (Not to mention, in at least one of these "sweepstakes" I saw it stated that Mr. Cannon didn't even know how much money came in. Now that is just horrible.) You should be able to say exactly where that money went, and that statement should agree fully and 100% with what the CGN members understood when they originally made the donations. I have no idea if this is a legal issue or not, but even more important, it is a trust issue and a "keep the donations coming in" issue. You're relying on donations and therefore on your members' trust. If they don't believe you when you say the money is going to a certain thing, don't be surprised if they don't donate. Simple as that.

The great mystery of Calguns.net . . . WHY RELY ON DONATIONS WHEN THE SITE CAN GENERATE MORE THAN ENOUGH ADVERTISING REVENUE TO PAY FOR THE HOSTING AND ALL RELATED COSTS? WHY? Do you see what kind of mess that has gotten you in?

[harmoniums]

this is from the GPAL forum, could be BS, I hope all is in order

Found this info posted on another forum dated 10/4/10.

Detective Shooter from Healdsburg PD called me today. I had called him and left a message last week b/c someone else posted his info in another post as the man to talk to. He said the Sonoma County DA will be handling the case. I think he said the FBI will be involved too but I was so happy to know someone is actively pursuing this. All of the LE Agencies are meeting tomorrow and trying to get all of the info and complaints into one central place to start handling this. He said the DA or someone from that office will be contacting me for more info.

[pullnshoot25]

this is from the GPAL forum, could be BS, I hope all is in order

Yeah, it's bull****...

[Vin496]

As I was given to understand it, the sweepstakes, not raffles, were run to cover part of the costs incurred by purchasing equipment for the servers.
The initial costs to purchase this equipment came from CDGlobal as the immediate need arose, the sweepstakes were used to recoup those expenses. The debts being paid were the fronted costs of the equipment.

The accounting just gets really complicated, and I doubt that anybody can really explain "where the money went" at this point, which, again, if I were a ticket buyer, would really make me mad. (Not to mention, in at least one of these "sweepstakes" I saw it stated that Mr. Cannon didn't even know how much money came in. Now that is just horrible.) You should be able to say exactly where that money went, and that statement should agree fully and 100% with what the CGN members understood when they originally made the donations. I have no idea if this is a legal issue or not, but even more important, it is a trust issue and a "keep the donations coming in" issue. You're relying on donations and therefore on your members' trust. If they don't believe you when you say the money is going to a certain thing, don't be surprised if they don't donate. Simple as that.

Here is the issue, you(Kes) stated that "As I was given to understand it, the sweepstakes, not raffles, were run to cover part of the costs incurred by purchasing equipment for the servers."

The problem is no one know what those cost were and what was brought in, including yourself, unless your not disclosing something. Every time someone questions this(GASP!!! How could they), they are shut down and belittled for questioning the CG Savior(self proclaimed BTW) that is Cannon.

For all we know those CDGlobal debts could have been car payments and personal expenses. Which would give good motive to "fix" the sweepstakes, but I'll leave that for a later conversation. I mean those could probably be solved or diminished by producing DROS records.

Then we come to the fact that you/mods keep editing and deleting GPal threads, which isn't helping, it gives the impression of complacency to GPal, whether true of not, that is the impression it gives.

Let's say all the other "rumors" and facts that are starting to come to light about Cannon are false. The plain and simple fact is that GPal has taken peoples money(in many cases multiple thousands of dollars) and is not paying them in a acceptable timely manner, or in any manner in some cases. Yet they continue to operate and accept new clients without divulging their issues, when they can't pay the ones they already have.

That on it's own is enough to cause outrage and allow people to question him openly and without fear of reprimand by you or the mods.

Remember CG endorsed GPal and very much pushed it, they host their Vendor Forum, which is it's own bag of worms, and after all the issues and everything that has come to light, still protect and cover up for Gpal and Cannon.

[eaglemike]

At this point it seems (to me) that some "members" are just looking for negative issues with this GPal, with Gpal's relations ship with this forum (if any, or any and all possible issues to stir things up.

I would suggest starting a specific thread if there is any issue that must be discussed. I don't think raising raising any possibly true or possible issue in this thread is needed. i.e. if you think there is a problem with a past sweepstakes, start a thread.

It seems as though some are just looking for any reason to "dog-pile."

[ZX-10R]

For all the garbage I have heard about GPAL since I got here...Why did some of you continue to use them?

Is there another alternative? I feel for you who have a ton of money tied up. That can be scary for sure.

[tacticalcity]

For all the garbage I have heard about GPAL since I got here...Why did some of you continue to use them?

Is there another alternative? I feel for you who have a ton of money tied up. That can be scary for sure.

A combination of ideology and friendship.

Gpal's mission statement is pro second amendment. Just about every payment processing company out there refuses to accept payment on firearms or firearms related products. Making it extremely difficult for people like us to do business online. Gpal is gun friendly. Since we have such a HUGE need for a gun friendly payment processing company, we were willing to cut Gpal some slack we would not cut others. However, they took that slack and then some. It wasn't intentional, but at this point it is incompetent. The jury is still out on whether or not they can get it fixed in time to earn a second chance down the road from those of us who have been burned.

For those of us who have been on Calguns for a while we know Ben Cannon and other Gpal board members. They are all big shots here on Calguns, who contribute a great deal of substantive information to the forum and volunteer a great deal of time to Calguns. Some of them we know in person, others thru our interactions with them on the board. So we were willing to give them more slack than we would a stranger. At some point, you have to give some tough love. Gpal has hit that point.

[Vin496]

At this point it seems (to me) that some "members" are just looking for negative issues with this GPal, with Gpal's relations ship with this forum (if any, or any and all possible issues to stir things up.

I would suggest starting a specific thread if there is any issue that must be discussed. I don't think raising raising any possibly true or possible issue in this thread is needed. i.e. if you think there is a problem with a past sweepstakes, start a thread.

It seems as though some are just looking for any reason to "dog-pile."

Well here is the problem, it is an emotional topic for many because it involves money.

Read no further than this post for an example,

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=349385

In all fairness CG opened themselves up to this plain and simple by hosting the GPal claims resolution subforum. All the other connections and accusations are a result of that. You let the bull in your shop and then act surprised and offended when all your china gets broke.

As for your statement about starting a thread, it has been, and since this is an emotional topic people are speaking out, then in almost every case, post are edited and threads are locked or deleted. Which in turns makes people more emotional.

[eaglemike]

I'm trying to say this - if you want to complain about a past sweepstakes, start a thread about it. This thread is not about that. This thread is not about people looking for a reason to come up with reasons to be negative about Ben.