GPal (Gunpal) problems?

[Ape]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, however I did sign up for GunPal when it came out.
Luckily I never utilized their (lack of) services.
The only reason I feel compelled to post anything in this thread is because I've noticed
posts in MANY other gun forums stating exactly what tacticalcity is trying to convey to the staff members (and others) here.
So take this FWIW or disregard it if you feel the need, but I'm constantly hearing how Calguns has garnered a black eye with their GPal affilliations. And to make it even more disheartening, the posts and threads around the gun community take note as to the "hand washing" appearance taken with Calguns affiliation with GPal. In other words people around the country are noting how it seems Calguns has decided to distance themselves from GPal now that things are a disaster and fringe on the edge of illegal.
Yet in the beginning everyone was commenting on how Calguns was a very large proponent and even endorsing body of GunPal.

I remember reading all the threads and posts in other forums as to how Calguns might actually be making some headway with gun rights in California by taking this step with GunPal. Yet now all I ever read is how Calguns is taking a typical California political approach to innapppropriate dealings.

I for one find it sad and some what interesting that Calguns has yet to make a firm and hard handed stance on GPal's shady backroom financial dealings?
And perhaps Calguns has taken a hard line stance to condem GPal that I just haven't seen as of yet? But threads like these tell me (and others) differently.

[6172crew]

Although I see your point I'm not sure your right about some of the things you pointed out.

I am on my iPhone so I can't quote each of the points I want to disagree with, but I have always said "I hope each member is taken care of" and although you didn't mention me I have not made fun of anyone and have only deleted gpal threads or posts that break the CGN rules.

Now I'm not sure if I am taking this last point the right way but are you saying:

If anyone on the CGN staff promotes any of the vendors in any way then they have an extra duty to protect the members from harm than if they don't promote a vendor?

I think we (as staff) have an obligation to protect all of it's members but there are only certian things we can do and I am also 100% positive the owner is doing everything he can think of to protect CGN members. I'm almost certain a bunch of you think more can be done and I'm just as certian that Kestryll is probably doing things we haven't even thought of to protect the members.

As always, Semper Fidelis applies to CGN (which is really it's members).

[tacticalcity]

You see anger in my statement. All I see is frankness. I'm not angry with you. I am disappointed.

Your above comments are making fun of members who got burned by Gpal. All you have to do is read the threads.

As for you posting remarks about Gpal, I never said you personally did. I said staff members did, and they did.

Staff members posted glowing remarks in threads started by members asking about GUNPAL before the problems came into play. Most made reference to Ben Cannon's long association with Calguns and praised his character. It was those glowing remarks, and Ban Cannon's and the other Gpal board member's association with Calguns that got us to take the leap and trust them with our business.

I get that you are seeing a lot of anger directed your way. I am trying to tell you that your reaction to that anger is unprofessional and irresponsible.

Look, I am not your enemy here. I'm telling you how your reaction to this is coming off. I'm offering you advice on how you can easily and immediately take action to curb this growing PR problem.

You can chose to be hot headed about that. Or you can take a little bit to think about how your comments are being received by those who have been burned by this and take corrective action.

Right now you guys all have your guard up, and are all being very defensive about your moral responsibility in this. Not only is that not the right way to play it from a public relations standpoint (as you are alienating a massive number of your members) but it is the wrong choice morally.

You accidentally burned 1000s of your friends. Now that they are coming to complain about it. Instead of sympathizing with them, you side with the company that burned them and criticize them for complaining. That's not right.

[6172crew]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, however I did sign up for GunPal when it came out.
Luckily I never utilized their (lack of) services.
The only reason I feel compelled to post anything in this thread is because I've noticed
posts in MANY other gun forums stating exactly what tacticalcity is trying to convey to the staff members (and others) here.
So take this FWIW or disregard it if you feel the need, but I'm constantly hearing how Calguns has garnered a black eye with their GPal affilliations. And to make it even more disheartening, the posts and threads around the gun community take note as to the "hand washing" appearance taken with Calguns affiliation with GPal. In other words people around the country are noting how it seems Calguns has decided to distance themselves from GPal now that things are a disaster and fringe on the edge of illegal.
Yet in the beginning everyone was commenting on how Calguns was a very large proponent and even endorsing body of GunPal.

I remember reading all the threads and posts in other forums as to how Calguns might actually be making some headway with gun rights in California by taking this step with GunPal. Yet now all I ever read is how Calguns is taking a typical California political approach to innapppropriate dealings.

I for one find it sad and some what interesting that Calguns has yet to make a firm and hard handed stance on GPal's shady backroom financial dealings?
And perhaps Calguns has taken a hard line stance to condem GPal that I just haven't seen as of yet? But threads like these tell me (and others) differently.

I think a lot of those threads they are talking about were 2 things.

The first allegations were CGN and Gpal are the same company or owner or funded by the same.

I was on another forum telling folks this was not true, which may have looked like I was distancing CGN from Gpal but this was always the case.

Mix in the fact that the owner was on the bod of CGF and anyone without inside knowledge thinks it's a shame. Then you have a few members coming here who have said somthing about Bens arrest record and again it adds the the fire.

Since I don't know anything more than the rest of the members I can only point out the facts that I know about.

So I have:
1. Stood up for CGN, CGF and even Ben on other forums but if people don't have the facts they tend to think the worst and that is human nature.

[Ape]

I think a lot of those threads they are talking about were 2 things.

The first allegations were CGN and Gpal are the same company or owner or funded by the same.

I was on another forum telling folks this was not true, which may have looked like I was distancing CGN from Gpal but this was always the case.

Mix in the fact that the owner was on the bod of CGF and anyone without inside knowledge thinks it's a shame. Then you have a few members coming here who have said somthing about Bens arrest record and again it adds the the fire.

Since I don't know anything more than the rest of the members I can only point out the facts that I know about.

So I have:
1. Stood up for CGN, CGF and even Ben on other forums but if people don't have the facts they tend to think the worst and that is human nature.

I'm not trying to mix facts with my statements. All I was noting is the perception in gun forums across the nation. Be it misinformed perceptions, fact based or other wise....the fact is that Calguns is being stained by this.
As I said I don't have a dog in this fight, other than the perceived black eye I think this entire mess gives to the gun community as a whole.

[tacticalcity]

Although I see your point I'm not sure your right about some of the things you pointed out.

I am on my iPhone so I can't quote each of the points I want to disagree with, but I have always said "I hope each member is taken care of" and although you didn't mention me I have not made fun of anyone and have only deleted gpal threads or posts that break the CGN rules.

Now I'm not sure if I am taking this last point the right way but are you saying:

If anyone on the CGN staff promotes any of the vendors in any way then they have an extra duty to protect the members from harm than if they don't promote a vendor?

I think we (as staff) have an obligation to protect all of it's members but there are only certian things we can do and I am also 100% positive the owner is doing everything he can think of to protect CGN members. I'm almost certain a bunch of you think more can be done and I'm just as certian that Kestryll is probably doing things we haven't even thought of to protect the members.

As always, Semper Fidelis applies to CGN (which is really it's members).

I expect you to protect me from you. And by you I mean the Calguns board. Gpal's board members are your board members. So it quickly becomes a question of semantics.

I'm not trying to single you out by using the word you. I'm also not trying to single you out by referring to Calguns staff. I just want to make that clear. As far as I know, nothing you personally posted encouraged me to become a Gpal member or ticked me off. I'm trying to remain as general as I can so not to single anyone out.

Gpal is still taking on new customers despite an obvious inability to provide support for the customers they currently have. Not taking on new members is just one thing I can think of that they can do. Poring every dollar they have at fixing the underlying problem that is causing withdrawals to take and average of 21 days or longer to appear in peoples accounts (those numbers are based on my personal experience) is another. The same underlying problem that existed in June is happening now. Withdrawals do not happen on time. Until they can fix that, then their inability to provide support is going to continue to spiral out of control.

While I am sure Ben is less than happy with me right now. I do like him a lot. I also like the board members that I've delt with. I also like Kes and Lee Law. And I am sure once I get to know you I'm going to be thrilled with you as well. That doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of denial and hand washing going on, and it is killing Calguns' image, and it needs to stop.

You and we have given Gpal several months to straighten this out. They haven't. How much longer are we expected to bear with them? At what point does the staff at Calguns listen to the majority of their membership and start taking both action and responsibility for their own role in this? At what point do we your members stop being the silly angry unreasonable ones and you see as the voice of logic?

Look, I wouldn't be posting any of this at all if I were not fed up with the staff complaining about our complaining and denials of any connection with Gpal. You share board members. The CEO was a board member. Your association is undeniable. Granted, all you've gotten out the deal lately is bad press.

[tacticalcity]

I think a lot of those threads they are talking about were 2 things.

The first allegations were CGN and Gpal are the same company or owner or funded by the same.

I was on another forum telling folks this was not true, which may have looked like I was distancing CGN from Gpal but this was always the case.

Mix in the fact that the owner was on the bod of CGF and anyone without inside knowledge thinks it's a shame. Then you have a few members coming here who have said somthing about Bens arrest record and again it adds the the fire.

Since I don't know anything more than the rest of the members I can only point out the facts that I know about.

So I have:
1. Stood up for CGN, CGF and even Ben on other forums but if people don't have the facts they tend to think the worst and that is human nature.

They do share a very large number of board members. So while not the same company, they are closely associated with one another. Ben specifically included his title with Calguns on every post and promotional ad for Gpal here on Calguns and on other boards. That association was used to promote the company and to get people to use their services. Those people have since been hurt financially, and will continue to be hurt financially until the underlying problem causing withdrawls to take (in my case) an average of 21 days to arrive is solved.

So while not officially the same company, and while Kes is not the owner of Gpal, there are some major conflicts of interest going on. Whether those conflicts be based strictly on personal relationships or financial ones does not matter. Calguns staff is showing a great deal of loyalty to Gpal at the expense of their membership, and even criticizing and poking fun at those members that complain too loudly. That is just not right. It also does not make any sense, except for the fact that you share board members. That is the very definition of conflict of interest.

I can understand wanting to hang in there with Gpal. I wouldn't if I were Kes, but I understand it. I cannot understand the lack of sympathy and even criticisms from the Calguns staff for there members who are naturally upset at having been burned financially by a company they trusted specifically because of their association with Calguns. I also cannot forgive the flat out refusal to accept or acknowlege the association between the two companies and the responsibility Calguns bears for encouraging so many of its members to become Gpal customers. The attempt to downplay both is ridiculous. Nobody is buying it. Not even your most loyal members.

There is a way to handle this without completely alienating your members. The way Calguns is going about it is not it. Like I said, I love it here. Calguns has done great things for me personally and my State. I want Calguns to remain strong and influential. If the membership is taken for granted, that is not going to happen.

[pullnshoot25]

Re: GPal (Gunpal) problems?

Wow. About ready to become a lemming after reading only part of this thread.

[sorensen440]

This has been a sad, sad, affair, highlighted by one chuckle:

4 rolls of tp ?

[Purple K]

Your attitudes are extremely offensive and childish.

Gpal made a huge deal out of their connection with Calguns. Calguns went out of their way to help Gpal reach their members. When we researched Gpal one of the first things we noticed is that all of the board members of Gpal had a position on the board here at Calguns, some of them Ben VERY high ranking members. We trusted them because we trust you.

Now you are laughing at us for that?

I do not care that you are a moderator Lee Law, that is truly shameful behavior on your part.

Calguns does bear a responsibility to its members for its connection with Gpal. While unofficial, the connection does clearly exist. We only trusted them because of that connection. I personally would never have used Gpal if not for the fact that their CEO and their board members were all people on Calguns board.

Many of us have been hurt financially by Gpal. It is not a laughing matter. So while I do not hold you financially responsible, I do resent the hell out of the fact that you find this all so "funny".

I have been a member of Calguns for a very long time. I love it here. I refer all of my friends here. I think of myself as "belonging" here and consider myself part of the Calguns family. I trust that when I read a post from a board member, or see anything associate with a board member that it will be reliable. With regards to GPal, that was not the case. While I do not expect to be crying in your beer over Gpals massive short comings. I do expect you to be embarrassed by them. I certainly don't expect to see you laughing about it publicly.

Very well said!

[freonr22]

Steve martin the jerk

[6172crew]

I'm not trying to mix facts with my statements. All I was noting is the perception in gun forums across the nation. Be it misinformed perceptions, fact based or other wise....the fact is that Calguns is being stained by this.
As I said I don't have a dog in this fight, other than the perceived black eye I think this entire mess gives to the gun community as a whole.

And I agree with your statment.

[6172crew]

Steve martin the jerk

I hope my sig pic isn't taken for anything other than what it was, a screen shot of one of my favorite movies. I was going to take a scene shot of the "he hates these cans" but o saw that on another forum so I chose this one over him eating the cup of pizza.

Until you pointed it out I never thought someone would think I would steal or lie to anyone in or outside this forum, thanks for pointing it out. It's time for a new sig anyhow.

[tankerman]

Guy definitely is unsavory, seems like those in the past here who have questioned his ethics have been vindicated.

Vindicated, yes.
Apologized to, no.

[dsmoot]

They do share a very large number of board members. So while not the same company, they are closely associated with one another. Ben specifically included his title with Calguns on every post and promotional ad for Gpal here on Calguns and on other boards. That association was used to promote the company and to get people to use their services. Those people have since been hurt financially, and will continue to be hurt financially until the underlying problem causing withdrawls to take (in my case) an average of 21 days to arrive is solved.

So while not officially the same company, and while Kes is not the owner of Gpal, there are some major conflicts of interest going on. Whether those conflicts be based strictly on personal relationships or financial ones does not matter. Calguns staff is showing a great deal of loyalty to Gpal at the expense of their membership, and even criticizing and poking fun at those members that complain too loudly. That is just not right. It also does not make any sense, except for the fact that you share board members. That is the very definition of conflict of interest.

I can understand wanting to hang in there with Gpal. I wouldn't if I were Kes, but I understand it. I cannot understand the lack of sympathy and even criticisms from the Calguns staff for there members who are naturally upset at having been burned financially by a company they trusted specifically because of their association with Calguns. I also cannot forgive the flat out refusal to accept or acknowlege the association between the two companies and the responsibility Calguns bears for encouraging so many of its members to become Gpal customers. The attempt to downplay both is ridiculous. Nobody is buying it. Not even your most loyal members.

There is a way to handle this without completely alienating your members. The way Calguns is going about it is not it. Like I said, I love it here. Calguns has done great things for me personally and my State. I want Calguns to remain strong and influential. If the membership is taken for granted, that is not going to happen.

tacticalcity, I've read your posts and I believe that you are missing a major point here, there are not just 2 companies here. There are 2 companies (GPal and Calguns.net) and a completely separate non-profit entity (The Calguns Foundation). You mention that Ben was "on the board" of calguns. He was on the board of CGF not CGN. Kes is the owner of CGN, lee-law and others are moderators for CGN. Kes and the other moderators have no control over who is on the board of CGF.

Maybe Kes or one of the other moderators can give more background on this, but I just wanted to point out a mistake that I had made in the past, and looked like you were making here.