POLYMER80 Raided by ATF

[Mendo223]

They just released a statement saying they are still building and processing orders.

Im reading on ARF that this is specifically targeting CA buyers who bought the complete kit, starting with any potential prohibited persons.

I knew as soon as i saw the BBS kits a red flag went up that would probably be banned in CA, everything is banned here even "assault colors" like FDE...

I still dont see how they can prove possession or intent in a court of law if the defendant was not in possession of a completed build.

Meanwhile, your local rappers and gang members give no F**K$ and barely face any jail time when they are arrested with illegal guns, hell i know of a sacramento rapper, twice charged for murder and aquitted, who is out on bail for handgun possession right now SMH......Scamala let my friends killer walk free on homicide in 2008 and shooter had GSR, cell phone, and witnesses at the scene...CA is a sick disgusting joke.

[Mendo223]

That's not what your original post said and your question indicates you have no clue what the law is. None of this is new or confusing for anyone who has paid any attention at all over the past decade.

Not trying to get into a pissing match here, but OP clearly asked a question about legalities, not admit to actually owning or building an illegal kit. Your posts after the fact, while good intentioned at cautioning people on legalities, are now borderline evidence that anything contrary was posted.

I know that my question does not work with ARs as the lower is the only part serialized, i was simply wondering that since the slide/barrel is serialized on glocks, if that could in a sense "cover" the p80 lower.

Now that i know that is not legal, would you like me to post a picture of all my factory glocks with a time datestamp to show the prying pig eyes that all of my glocks are stilll factory with matching serials?

Also, your arguments regarding $3 paperweights are still circumstantial, over paying for plastic is not a crime. Throw the jig away, wheres the intent? That is being argued right now on ARF, and the consensus is its not their job to prove what is logical, and the plastic alone is not a firearm until you are in constructive possession of the parts to complete it. Yes, it could qualify for PC to get the warrant to snoop around and CA judges are notorious for signing warrants with shaky PC hoping they find something later, but if no finished builds are present what are they going to charge?

[AregularGuy]

I don't own a P80 and this isn't hard.

If you use the P80 for it's only intended purpose in CA, it is a crime. The only logical reason to own one in CA is to make a semi automatic handgun. How hard do you think it would be to get a judge to sign off on that search warrant? Hint: not hard. How many people can manufacture cute legal defenses talking to ATF agents that get them to go away? Zero people so far in the history of the ATF.

Are P80s legal in CA? No.
Are P80s currently being seized in AZ from non-felons? Yes.
Is it likely AZ is more anti-gun than CA? Hahahahaha
Will people spend $100+ for $3 in plastic to use as an art piece or to build a bolt action? No.
Could the ATF determine that P80 with no work done is a firearm? 100% ABSOLUTELY.

You have to be totally nuts to think that the CA DOJ doesn't care about snagging low hanging fruit in ignorant gun owners. I think that's their main mission at this point. Look at how they used the last AW registration to visit people who tried to legally register illegally configured guns. If you have a P80 and live in CA, you better be prepared for problems.

This is all speculation. Stop making up "laws" and scenarios, stop lying to people. You are saying you have no basis for your position on owning an UNFINISHED 80% lower, other than you hypothesizing? Cannot site one single case of someone being tracked down and arrested or harassed for simply buying/owning an 80% lower?

Yet you are spreading FUD about something that is legal to do today, at least. You can buy and own pieces of plastic and aluminum. You cannot finish them legally in CA. That is the bottom line. Some people buy 80% lowers and stow them away, for a some-day-that-may-not-come SHTF future, with the idea that they never be "finished" until after that day, confiscation insurance if you will. That is their business and perfectly legal. WHat you reason in your mind or speculate upon does not change the facts or the law.

[Spyder]

PLease show me anywhere that owning an UNFINISHED 80% lower anything is illegal or where someone has been tracked down and harassed for buying and owning an UNIFINISHED 80% lower.

Well. I guess you could look at the title of this very thread you're posting in, and all of the information in it, along with all of the other talk out there in internet-world where unfinished 80% frames are causing a lot of ATF action to be taken...

[John Browning]

You guys need to familiarize yourself with reasonable suspicion and probable cause. You are crazy if you think purchase of a P80 kit doesn't meet at least one of those standards that opens the door for the man to walk into your life in CA. Likely, it meets both standards. As a reasonable person who hates gun control and thinks the laws are BS, I can't see a reasonable argument for buying a P80 that doesn't involve a crime in CA. Federally, that's a different answer...and I am biased to root for gun rights in the biggest way. Now put this in front of judge or juror Karen K. Kommisar...you think they are on your side?

There is ONE logical reason to buy a P80. Just like there is ONE logical reason to have a bunch of glass bottles filled with gas and capped with rags. Could this be how I decide to store my gas I use to travel into the city? Sure. Is that suspicious? Would a reasonable person see it that way? Or would they say, "Yeah, that guy was up to no good." Be realistic.

They can absolutely and will absolutely go after you and make you prove yourself innocent. They have done this time and time again. Look at the guys in Ventura who had actual legal mags confiscated. Look at the guys who get requests from CA DOJ for pictures on C&R self-registration that isn't required by law. Look at the guys who had their bullet button AR confiscated because they tried to self-register it.

I am not involved here because I am smart enough to know that even though these laws make no sense, I have no desire to get in a legal battle with CA DOJ or ATF. You cannot use logic here. If you wish to buy a P80 and apply logic to the argument, the cost of a ticket is an arrest and lawyer. You can make your argument in court. I sincerely wish you luck in that pursuit, maybe you are the hero who charges the hill and sets us all free. You just need to be aware of the fact that you might be the one they decide to make an example of.

Your cute legal arguments aren't that creative, reasonable or forceful.

[AregularGuy]

Well. I guess you could look at the title of this very thread you're posting in, and all of the information in it, along with all of the other talk out there in internet-world where unfinished 80% frames are causing a lot of ATF action to be taken...

Your post is disingenuous. The OP is about "Complete gun kits" that feature 80% lowers and involves convoluted laws of Fed and D.C. I am asking for anyone saying 80% lowers are illegal and that ATF is going to knock on your door with a warrant for buying one, to please cite where this has happened. For those saying it is "logical" or "the only conceivable outcome" you are spreading FUD.

ETA: How many people were hunted down and arrested in the aftermath of the Dr. Death ordeal? Those were fully completed lowers and Death was charged and plead guilty. I'm sure ATF had some sort of records, particularly considering he was active here on CG. Anyone here know of ATF taking down his customers?

[AregularGuy]

You guys need to familiarize yourself with reasonable suspicion and probable cause. You are crazy if you think purchase of a P80 kit doesn't meet at least one of those standards that opens the door for the man to walk into your life in CA. Likely, it meets both standards. As a reasonable person who hates gun control and thinks the laws are BS, I can't see a reasonable argument for buying a P80 that doesn't involve a crime in CA. Federally, that's a different answer...and I am biased to root for gun rights in the biggest way. Now put this in front of judge or juror Karen K. Kommisar...you think they are on your side?

There is ONE logical reason to buy a P80. Just like there is ONE logical reason to have a bunch of glass bottles filled with gas and capped with rags. Could this be how I decide to store my gas I use to travel into the city? Sure. Is that suspicious? Would a reasonable person see it that way? Or would they say, "Yeah, that guy was up to no good." Be realistic.

They can absolutely and will absolutely go after you and make you prove yourself innocent. They have done this time and time again. Look at the guys in Ventura who had actual legal mags confiscated. Look at the guys who get requests from CA DOJ for pictures on C&R self-registration that isn't required by law. Look at the guys who had their bullet button AR confiscated because they tried to self-register it.

I am not involved here because I am smart enough to know that even though these laws make no sense, I have no desire to get in a legal battle with CA DOJ or ATF. You cannot use logic here. If you wish to buy a P80 and apply logic to the argument, the cost of a ticket is an arrest and lawyer. You can make your argument in court. I sincerely wish you luck in that pursuit, maybe you are the hero who charges the hill and sets us all free. You just need to be aware of the fact that you might be the one they decide to make an example of.

Your cute legal arguments aren't that creative, reasonable or forceful.

You're logic does not make for law, nor determine what is legal. You are now saying P80 kit. I am not making any assumptions given that seems to be the basis for the raid on P80. I am saying you are spreading FUD for claiming that any 80% lower is illegal and will bring down the DOJ/ATF on your head. It doesn't matter how emphatically or how much you write. Your "feels" don't make law.

ETA: You can have all of the empty glass bottles, 5 gallon gas cans, and t-shirts you want.

[John Browning]

If you asked a Jew in Lodz in 1941 for evidence that the Nazis were planning mass extermination, what evidence could they give you? Plenty, just not pictures of the final solution.

You don't want to see the obvious. That won't end well for you, and luckily that isn't my problem.

The concept of 80 percent is not some magical thing. The ATF can, has and will randomly decide that object X now no longer meets what they said it did because of YZ. See: Honey Badger, braces 2020, shouldered braces 2016, Street Sweeper, bumpstocks, EP AR lowers, etc.

In around 2000, the ATF decided that there were some unregistered machineguns floating around. They were torch cut M14s that had literally been chopped in half, totally stripped and thrown out or sold as scrap. Then then receivers had been rewelded, made into new firearms, federal taxes paid on the "new" firearms, and a 4473 check performed. They had no full auto parts on the receiver and were not capable of restoring to full auto in any manner. A few years later, the ATF decided they were not properly torch cut at step one and because of "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" they were confiscated. They were machineguns, despite all that happened after step 1. It also meant that the Gov had sold machineguns as scrap. Any guesses as to what charges the government faced for selling unregistered machineguns?

I can't say this any more simply:

The ATF sets the rules and arbitrarily changes them. Anyone who is playing in the 80 percent pool in CA now should know there are sharks looking for blood in the water. As a person just smart enough to see stupid games win stupid prizes, I don't swim in that pool. Maybe stupid people get eaten, and maybe one stupid person finds a way to beat the sharks. I just won't be that person.

There are sharks in the ocean. Just because you can't see beneath the waves, doesn't mean they aren't there.

[AregularGuy]

If you asked a Jew in Lodz in 1941 for evidence that the Nazis were planning mass extermination, what evidence could they give you? Plenty, just not pictures of the final solution.

You don't want to see the obvious. That won't end well for you, and luckily that isn't my problem.

The concept of 80 percent is not some magical thing. The ATF can, has and will randomly decide that object X now no longer meets what they said it did because of YZ. See: Honey Badger, braces 2020, shouldered braces 2016, Street Sweeper, bumpstocks, EP AR lowers, etc.

In around 2000, the ATF decided that there were some unregistered machineguns floating around. They were torch cut M14s that had literally been chopped in half, totally stripped and thrown out or sold as scrap. Then then receivers had been rewelded, made into new firearms, federal taxes paid on the "new" firearms, and a 4473 check performed. They had no full auto parts on the receiver and were not capable of restoring to full auto in any manner. A few years later, the ATF decided they were not properly torch cut at step one and because of "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" they were confiscated. They were machineguns, despite all that happened after step 1. It also meant that the Gov had sold machineguns as scrap. Any guesses as to what charges the government faced for selling unregistered machineguns?

I can't say this any more simply:

The ATF sets the rules and arbitrarily changes them. Anyone who is playing in the 80 percent pool in CA now should know there are sharks looking for blood in the water. As a person just smart enough to see stupid games win stupid prizes, I don't swim in that pool. Maybe stupid people get eaten, and maybe one stupid person finds a way to beat the sharks. I just won't be that person.

There are sharks in the ocean. Just because you can't see beneath the waves, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Sweet Christmas! You are getting worse! Now fear mongering in addition to FUD. You have no basis for any of this other than your "feels". It is obvious you cannot support your position any other way so further discussion is pointless for either of us. For anyone reading please do your own homework and do not take either of our "word" for what you can or cannot do legally.

[Usmc0844spare]

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/...rs-/5-2401363/

Thankfully no dog in this fight, just an interested observer fed up with gun control laws.... but holy heck the sheer amount of "take it from my cold dead fingers" BS in that thread is amazing.

[John Browning]

I can tell you have no legal experience, because reasonable suspicion and probable cause aren't "feels" but actual legal terms.

No basis? Yeah, it isn't like the ATF raided P80 for customers info and now we have confiscation receipts or anything. I mean, wow, if that happened then we would have some evidence...

[Mendo223]

You guys need to familiarize yourself with reasonable suspicion and probable cause. You are crazy if you think purchase of a P80 kit doesn't meet at least one of those standards that opens the door for the man to walk into your life in CA

Please cite case law or evidence, the only thing we have seen are knock and talks with threats of raids, and targetting of prohibited persons who bought BBS KITS....You said frame in one post, now its a full kit. Yes a full kit ordered to CA from their website is the closest on their radar for a knock, but where has a non prohibited person been served a search warrant, and charged for possession of a built unserialized p80, but you are stretching the doomsday worst case scenario for simple possession of an unmodified frame

There is ONE logical reason to buy a P80. Just like there is ONE logical reason to have a bunch of glass bottles filled with gas and capped with rags. Could this be how I decide to store my gas I use to travel into the city? Sure. Is that suspicious? Would a reasonable person see it that way? Or would they say, "Yeah, that guy was up to no good." Be realistic.

You lecture us on court of law, then say "logical" over and over like that is a word used in any court room....I asked questions about the technicality of serialized slides on p80s, but i dont need to be told i dont know basic criminal cases because unless you are a paralegal i probably have seen and studied more caselaw for both criminal and civil, and in a criminal court room seeking state or federal charges, "There is one logical reason to buy a p80" wouldnt even make it past arraignment, let alone pass muster for charges or conviction.

They can absolutely and will absolutely go after you and make you prove yourself innocent. They have done this time and time again. Look at the guys in Ventura who had actual legal mags confiscated. Look at the guys who get requests from CA DOJ for pictures on C&R self-registration that isn't required by law. Look at the guys who had their bullet button AR confiscated because they tried to self-register it.

I went through volreg on 6 builds and have papers on all of them, this is the first time ive heard of BB builds being confiscated, BBs are legal under the RAW specifications
.

Your cute legal arguments aren't that creative, reasonable or forceful.

You claimed wrongly in your posts thats other fellow CG gun owners are committing felonies by asking questions, that isnt cute....i ask again to modify those comments because no one here has explicitly admitted to any felonies, only how to follow the law and avoid becoming a felon.

[Mendo223]

I can tell you have no legal experience, because reasonable suspicion and probable cause aren't "feels" but actual legal terms.

No basis? Yeah, it isn't like the ATF raided P80 for customers info and now we have confiscation receipts or anything. I mean, wow, if that happened then we would have some evidence...

And "There is only one logical reason to own a p80" is actually a "feelz" argument that wouldnt qualify under legal terms.

Prohibited persons ordering full BBS KITS, yes that qualify for PC for a judge to sign.


Simply ordering the lower frame only without LPK, slide etc, that is what other posters are saying you are spreading FUD, but honestly it could fall under TBH, in CA they have 100s if not 1000s of felons and gangs who they have to go visit first.

And to clarify for the last time, NO WHERE did OP ever say they actually ordered any plastic or completed a build, so im kind of angry that you twice posted the contrary, or insinuate that any other CG member is committing a felony, your posts could end being on an affidavit so..........hit that edit button. Im all for debating legalities, but to incorrectly throw other gun owners under the bus because you did not read word for word the original post??

[Quickdraw559]

They just released a statement saying they are still building and processing orders.

Im reading on ARF that this is specifically targeting CA buyers who bought the complete kit, starting with any potential prohibited persons.

I knew as soon as i saw the BBS kits a red flag went up that would probably be banned in CA, everything is banned here even "assault colors" like FDE...

I still dont see how they can prove possession or intent in a court of law if the defendant was not in possession of a completed build.

Meanwhile, your local rappers and gang members give no F**K$ and barely face any jail time when they are arrested with illegal guns, hell i know of a sacramento rapper, twice charged for murder and aquitted, who is out on bail for handgun possession right now SMH......Scamala let my friends killer walk free on homicide in 2008 and shooter had GSR, cell phone, and witnesses at the scene...CA is a sick disgusting joke.

This is all speculation. Stop making up "laws" and scenarios, stop lying to people. You are saying you have no basis for your position on owning an UNFINISHED 80% lower, other than you hypothesizing? Cannot site one single case of someone being tracked down and arrested or harassed for simply buying/owning an 80% lower?

[John Browning]

You guys can keep posting if you want and editing them as you want, but I am not changing what I wrote because you don't like it. If I were you, I would just stop talking.

The reasonable man standard is a pretty key concept in law, and the fact that you guys even use the word "feels" in response makes me think I am talking to a couple 12 year olds. LE, judges and juries don't dump common sense at the door and look up legal jargon. You need to understand how the world works. The barrier to entry into your life is reasonable suspicion.

https://www.maricopa.gov/919/Probable-Cause-Versus-Reasonable-Suspici

I see those crazy "feels" words in there that I have been using. Words like

Reasonable suspicion has been defined by the United States Supreme Court as "the sort of common-sense conclusion about human behavior upon which practical people . . . are entitled to rely." Further, it has defined reasonable suspicion as requiring only something more than an "unarticulated hunch." It requires facts or circumstances that give rise to more than a bare, imaginary, or purely conjectural suspicion.

I have tried to help you. I am not dumb enough to have bought a P80. I have probable cause, based on the fact you didn't even know what the serialized part of a pistol is, to conclude your firearms legal knowledge is zero.