POLYMER80 Raided by ATF

[RickD427]

Mendo,

Not a lawyer here, just an LEO who has done a lot of search warrants.

As to your question about "How does simply ordering a P80 frame constitute PC for a search warrant" - Keep in mind that the requirement for a search warrant is for the officer to have "Probable Cause" for the warrant to be issued. I'm not familiar with the details of this case, so I have to speak in generalities. If the officers have reason to believe that the "Polymer80" folks were illegally selling firearms in kit form, then any evidence that other folks were purchasing them would be evidence of the violation, and properly the subject of a search warrant.

A lot of folks make the mistake of believing that the person the search warrant is served upon must be suspected of a crime. There is no such requirement. The nice ATF folks may properly get a search warrant to search your house for evidence that "Polymer80" committed a crime. Several years ago the FBI got a search warrant to search the ground under a farmer's barn for evidence in the Jimmy Hoffa disappearance. The barn had to be destroyed to reach the ground underneath. But the farmer was never suspected of any wrongdoing.

As to your questions about building your own weapon from an 80% lower, there is a lot of unsettled law involved. From the most conservative view of the law, you really can't do it. A strict reading of the Zip Gun statute (PC 33600) requires that your build match a build by a licensed manufacturer (can you cite such a weapon built using your choice of components and manufacturing techniques?) The Zip Gun statute also requires that you either pay the federal excise tax on the manufacture, or be exempt from the tax under two specified federal statutes. And you can forget about paying the tax, you're exempt for up to 50 builds in a year, but the exemption is not under the two listed statutes. The Safe Handgun statute (PC 32000) is also going to prevent your building a semi-auto.

[Mendo223]

Thanks for your post rickD i always like to hear from LEO on the frontlines, my post was mainly if an already legal, registered glock 19 owner could take his serialized 19 slide/barrel and put that on a polymer80 frame legally in CA, i know now that this is not possible.

John browning is wrongfully insinuating that CG members are committing felonies by simply asking if this is legal.

[John Browning]

I never mentioned anyone by name, but is sure is SUSPICIOUS that one person thinks I am talking about them. Almost like they edited their post for a reason...

I didn't quote your original post as a courtesy, but rest assured it still exists somewhere. You and I both know what was said. I am not pointing out what was said to HELP you. I am trying to save you from yourself. I want to help you, and right now I would really advise you to stop talking.

[Kestryll]

I don't own a P80...

I do, I have a NIB unfinished P80 frame for my G21 sitting on my file cabinet behind me. Not the complete kit just the frame. If the laws ever change I'll finish it if not it's an interesting conversation piece and slice of firearms history.


And no, I'm not worried about owning it but then maybe I just don't understand the laws...

[Mendo223]

I do, I have a NIB unfinished P80 frame for my G21 sitting on my file cabinet behind me. Not the complete kit just the frame. If the laws ever change I'll finish it if not it's an interesting conversation piece and slice of firearms history.


And no, I'm not worried about owning it but then maybe I just don't understand the laws...

Hey kestryll are you seeing john browns posts? He DMs me saying he knows CA DOJ actively watches this websites, then points and tattletales about felonious activity, when NONE was ever admitted to or mentioned.

OP clearly asked a question about a potential future build that was verified to be illegal.

I have DMs where he is basically threatening me saying to delete my account for simply asking a question. He was told the OP did not admit to actually possessing any p80 kits unfinished or finished, yet he posted several times the complete opposite.

I am in complete disbelief that finger pointing towards fellow fun owners would be allowed on a forum "watched by DOJ"

[John Browning]

Kes, if you got a knock on the door, you have a totally reasonable response. You know that better than I. I would put you in a small minority of people who bought it and knew not to finish it.

[IE80percenter]

And "There is only one logical reason to own a p80" is actually a "feelz" argument that wouldnt qualify under legal terms.

Prohibited persons ordering full BBS KITS, yes that qualify for PC for a judge to sign.

Asking if there was any legal route in CA to serialize a p80 on a future dream build, not PC.

Simply ordering the lower frame only without LPK, slide etc, that is what other posters are saying you are spreading FUD, but honestly it could fall under TBH, in CA they have 100s if not 1000s of felons and gangs who they have to go visit first.

And to clarify for the last time, NO WHERE in my OP did i ever say i had actually ordered any plastic i clearly state i own legally registered OEM glocks, so im kind of angry that you twice posted the contrary, or insinuate that any other CG member is committing a felony, your posts could end being on an affidavit so..........hit that edit button. Im all for debating legalities, but to throw other gun owners under the bus for the feds??? Is this the new CGF, where we have tattletales in the classroom?

Pfftt.....there are people who will drop a dime on ANYONE doing anything they think is wrong. The gun culture is full of FUDDs, letter writers, and hall monitors who do most of the oppressive legwork for the Government for them. ATF and CA DOJ firearms division have most of their work handed to them by tips and citizen reports. Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

The examples of government reversing their decisions and not being accountable for it are numerous. From classifying open bolt semi autos as NFA, street sweepers as both semi-automatic AND destructive devices, saw cut receivers and frames as still firearms, rewelded receivers made from destroyed ones still machine guns even though the receiver cannot mount any full auto parts, to AK barreled kits being readly able to be assembled into a firearm, bumpstocks that magically turn a semiautomatic action into a full auto one, to now a collection of gun parts that now constitute a firearm even though to put them together requires a person to PHYSICALLY modify a receiver or frame to be able to mount any of it.

The reality is the State cannot allow a citizenry to be able to arm themselves outside of the control of the government. The flow of weapons must be under the control of the State for the state to remain relevant. If people build "ghost guns" when the state says you cannot, then who needs the state? In order for the state to remain relevant, it must bring the citizenry to heel. The state through the federal government (ATF) is doing that now.

California made it impossible to register a home build P80 pistol with the 3.2oz metal rule. When the politicians wrote the law and passed it they knew what they were doing. They knew they were making thousands of CA gun owners instant felons. And they didn't care, because they know for most people a P80 build or similar polymer frame build is the only way they could possibly homebuild a gun.

It's all about citizenry control. In a state where criminals are released with no bail, serve minimal to no jail or prison time for their crimes, or even are not prosecuted due to district attorneys refusing to pursue charges, it's not about public safety.

Cops know this, but they won't back the people. They are paid agents of the state, and they will not endanger their paychecks or retirement in defense of the constitution of the United States or the State of California. They will always choose violence over reason, as violence is the supreme authority through which all authority is derived.

So with that, we have to accept that once legal P80s are illegal now. That if you bought one of the complete kits you run the risk of being raided in the future, that your only recourse is to surrender your once legal property to the state, because you cannot have anything not sanctioned by the state with the blessing of the state. It's no different than people who owned legal semiautomatic firearms one day being turned into felons the next if they didn't register their guns a second time when the state told them to.

Its telling that the Second Ammendment is the only ammendment the government cares about. It doesn't concern itself with the first, third, fourth, fifth etc, etc....because those amendments in the grand scheme of things mean nothing to an oppressive government. Only arms in the hands of people mean anything to the state, and even that doesn't concern the state much.

[Mendo223]

I never mentioned anyone by name, but is sure is SUSPICIOUS that one person thinks I am talking about them. Almost like they edited their post for a reason...

I didn't quote your original post as a courtesy, but rest assured it still exists somewhere. You and I both know what you said, and I could throw you under the bus. I am trying to save you from yourself. I want to help you, and right now I would really advise you too stop talking.

You are clearly out of line, OP specifically worded it to clarify it as a question to the legalities of a potential future build. OP never once stated that any kits unfinished or finished were even in current possession.


And now you bully threaten and insinuate illegal activity, you are a class act sir.

[John Browning]

Hey Mendo, can you point to where I mentioned anyone by name? Glad to delete those. Oh, there aren't any.

You aren't helping yourself. My advice to you publicly is the same as privately: Stop talking. You can edit posts, but you can never pull things down completely. I am saying that to HELP you.

I am going to take my own advice. I have nothing to add.

[Mendo223]

Pfftt.....there are people who will drop a dime on ANYONE doing anything they think is wrong. The gun culture is full of FUDDs, letter writers, and hall monitors who do most of the oppressive legwork for the Government for them. ATF and CA DOJ firearms division have most of their work handed to them by tips and citizen reports. Gun owners are their own worst enemies.

[/IMG]

Im literally in disbelief that john browning think its OK to snitch on a fellow gun owner, when he is completely wrong. You can actually see the OP still quoted where it says "Wanted to build" and never once actually said any kits were built or even purchased.

Now i have DMs of him making threats and enjoying the thought of DOJ going after a fellow gun owner.

Im not worried, i think its comical as im legal and registered, and hes literally sitting there blackmailing over his own inability to read the OP.

But god forbid a new gun owner accidently asks the wrong question, theres good ol john browning to point fingers for the feds.

[IE80percenter]

Mendo,

Not a lawyer here, just an LEO who has done a lot of search warrants.

As to your question about "How does simply ordering a P80 frame constitute PC for a search warrant" - Keep in mind that the requirement for a search warrant is for the officer to have "Probable Cause" for the warrant to be issued. I'm not familiar with the details of this case, so I have to speak in generalities. If the officers have reason to believe that the "Polymer80" folks were illegally selling firearms in kit form, then any evidence that other folks were purchasing them would be evidence of the violation, and properly the subject of a search warrant.

A lot of folks make the mistake of believing that the person the search warrant is served upon must be suspected of a crime. There is no such requirement. The nice ATF folks may properly get a search warrant to search your house for evidence that "Polymer80" committed a crime. Several years ago the FBI got a search warrant to search the ground under a farmer's barn for evidence in the Jimmy Hoffa disappearance. The barn had to be destroyed to reach the ground underneath. But the farmer was never suspected of any wrongdoing.

As to your questions about building your own weapon from an 80% lower, there is a lot of unsettled law involved. From the most conservative view of the law, you really can't do it. A strict reading of the Zip Gun statute (PC 33600) requires that your build match a build by a licensed manufacturer (can you cite such a weapon built using your choice of components and manufacturing techniques?) The Zip Gun statute also requires that you either pay the federal excise tax on the manufacture, or be exempt from the tax under two specified federal statutes. And you can forget about paying the tax, you're exempt for up to 50 builds in a year, but the exemption is not under the two listed statutes. The Safe Handgun statute (PC 32000) is also going to prevent your building a semi-auto.

So out of curiosity, how many search warrants have you seen signed off by a judge where the PC is " subject suspected of owning a unregistered firearm" where the subject is not under investigation for any other crime, has no criminal history, and is not a prohibited person?

I'm curious how often that particular scenario equates into a warrant and raid.

[IE80percenter]

Im literally in disbelief that john browning think its OK to snitch on a fellow gun owner, when he is completely wrong. You can actually see the OP still quoted where it says "Wanted to build" and never once actually said any kits were built or even purchased.

Now i have DMs of him making threats and enjoying the thought of DOJ going after a fellow gun owner.

Im not worried, i think its comical as im legal and registered, and hes literally sitting there blackmailing over his own inability to read the OP.

But god forbid a new gun owner accidently asks the wrong question, theres good ol john browning to point fingers for the feds.

Well, wouldn't be the first or the last. Been all kinds of examples of gun owners selling each other out to the State on every gun board I have ever been on. ARFcom, the old Subguns, AKfiles, HKPro, FALFiles, and here on Calguns.

[John Browning]

I am really confused about how telling people who shouldn't be taking to stop talking is being a snitch. If you don't know the laws, best to stay silent until you do.

I have been here a long time. I am not a snitch looking to make trouble. If I had that intent, telling people to stop taking seems to make me the worlds most incompetent honey pot snitch trap.

I'm not pointing fingers or doing anything to further the work of the CA DOJ or ATF.

[IE80percenter]

I never mentioned anyone by name, but is sure is SUSPICIOUS that one person thinks I am talking about them. Almost like they edited their post for a reason...

I didn't quote your original post as a courtesy, but rest assured it still exists somewhere. You and I both know what you said, and I could throw you under the bus. I am trying to save you from yourself. I want to help you, and right now I would really advise you too stop talking.

Why did you post this? It comes across as a threat, and seems to imply it's something you would do.

[John Browning]

Why did you post this? It comes across as a threat, and seems to imply it's something you would do.

I can see how it might come across that way. Edited.