Cal Regs

[six seven tango]

This is where I am having issues with using form 961 to report C&R purchases...

The form 961 references PC27966...


So on its face, purchasing a C&R longgun from AIM and having it delivered to my doorstep, appears to meet all of the requirements of 27966 as long as I have a C&R and COE (which I do). Doesn't specify where the seller has to be located. No problem, good to go.

The problem I am still having is with the reference to "non-licensees" on page 2 of the form 961. It would seem to only apply to acquisitions from non-dealers and therefore not applicable to purchases from places like AIM.

The form seems to conflict with the penal code its based on...

jl1252

When in doubt, follow the PC.

[krwada]

If you are this paranoid

This is where I am having issues with using form 961 to report C&R purchases...

The form 961 references PC27966...

"Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following
requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person
to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver
in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes
information concerning the individual taking possession of the
firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of
the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete
pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department."

So on its face, purchasing a C&R longgun from AIM and having it delivered to my doorstep, appears to meet all of the requirements of 27966 as long as I have a C&R and COE (which I do). Doesn't specify where the seller has to be located. No problem, good to go.

The problem I am still having is with the reference to "non-licensees" on page 2 of the form 961. It would seem to only apply to acquisitions from non-dealers and therefore not applicable to purchases from places like AIM.

The form seems to conflict with the penal code its based on...

jl1252

If you are really this paranoid ... then do what our California Overlord Masters want for you ... Do not purchase a firearm ... or do ALL transactions through an 01-FFL and be done with it.

As others have said; BOF961 and you are pretty much good to go.

(provided you do have your C&R + COE)

[jl1252]

How am I being paranoid? Im just trying to wrap my head around the language. The penal code says one thing and the form its based on says another...excuse me.

[vintagerifle]

Posted this in the wrong section sorry! <deleted>

[krwada]

Tripping you up

How am I being paranoid? Im just trying to wrap my head around the language. The penal code says one thing and the form its based on says another...excuse me.

Believe me ... This is intentional. The politicians and their regulator lackeys will do everything they can to try and trip you up.

This stuff is rife everywhere... especially with the firearms infringements ... (regulations).

[kouye]

Question: I have a Type 03 FLL and COE, I want to sell a C&R rifle to a resident of another state. The transfer, however, will be in CA at my Type 03 FFL address. The buyer does not have a Type 03 FFL. Can this be done cash and carry, as long as he is allowed to purchase firearms and it does not conflict with laws in his state?

Pretty sure this was true pre-2014, but am unsure now.

[six seven tango]

Question: I have a Type 03 FLL and COE, I want to sell a C&R rifle to a resident of another state. The transfer, however, will be in CA at my Type 03 FFL address. The buyer does not have a Type 03 FFL. Can this be done cash and carry, as long as he is allowed to purchase firearms and it does not conflict with laws in his state?

Pretty sure this was true pre-2014, but am unsure now.

Short answer...No cash and carry.

Longer answer...

As of Jan '14, long guns must be registered at time of transfer. That means the self reg for us 03's.

Since the transaction will take place in CA, you and the buyer must follow CA law. Since your buyer does not have an FFL, the long gun must be PPT'd by an 01. But, CA requires both the seller and the buyer to be CA residents, so you're pretty much SOL.

I've never sold to a non-FFL from out of state, but you might be able to legally handle it F2F in his home state. Hopefully, someone with a little more experience with that will chime in.

[kouye]

I found this on the ATF C&R FAQ page, but maybe it's outdated?:

"Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a non-licensed resident of another State so long as 1) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.

[27 CFR 478.96 (c)(1)]"

https://www.atf.gov/faq-page/306#t306n12296

Is this no longer true?

[six seven tango]

I found this on the ATF C&R FAQ page, but maybe it's outdated?:

"Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a non-licensed resident of another State so long as 1) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.

[27 CFR 478.96 (c)(1)]"

https://www.atf.gov/faq-page/306#t306n12296

Is this no longer true?

It's still true, but it's only the federal side of the issue. Notice #2 above mentions complying with the legal conditions of sale in both States. That's your catch 22. Because CA requires registration of all long guns, and as an 03 you don't have access to the DROS system, your buyer has to PPT at an 01, and wait 10 days. But, your buyer can't satisfy CA's residency requirement, so you can't PPT it to him. It's looking like your only option will be to ship it to an FFL in his state.

[kouye]

I see...what about shipping it directly to him in his state (as long as it's legal in their state). Any CA rules against that?

[six seven tango]

I see...what about shipping it directly to him in his state (as long as it's legal in their state). Any CA rules against that?

Not allowed federally. An interstate transfer has to be done FFL to FFL.

[kouye]

That just blows!....

[six seven tango]

Ya gotta love CA surf and ski and all that crap...

Does the buyer not have an FFL close to him that you could ship to? The shipping wouldn't be any different on your end. Enter it into your book as an FFL to FFL transfer.

[kouye]

Haven't explored that yet. Now there is less of advantage to buying from me vs. buying from an LGS so...

[annoyed_in_ca]

Hello,

I wanted to see if anyone else has run across the same issue I just had. I have my C&R and my COE. I purchased an Enfield from an Ohio dealer. I told the dealer he could ship directly to me. However, he wanted to call DOJ and verify. DOJ told him that all shipments must go thru an FFL dealer. When I called DOJ I asked why couldn't the rifle be shipped to me and then I self report it, the woman indicated it violated PC 28160.