Lets see your .223 California Legal Self Loading Rifle!

[pyro3k2]

Geeze...a good place for cops and DOJ boys and gurlz to look for an ez bust.

Lets look at the profile here, joined very recently with just a few posts and this one being the only one of his 9 posts that are like this. The rest are WTS/WTB.

Guys we have the chance to educate some one correctly, please let put our best foot forward and not turn into AR15 forum members. Just my 0.02 cents.

[RK808]

Hey billdoodoo what's that little selector switch lookin thing on both sides of your receiver?

[OutlawDon]

Hey billdoodoo what's that little selector switch lookin thing on both sides of your receiver?

Non-Rotating Trigger and Hammer Pins

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/KNS-Precision-Non-Rotating-Trigger-Hammer-Pins-p/kns%20trigger%20hammer%20154%20pins.htm

[RK808]

Oh ok cool! Good to know

[advan031]

waiting on my Larue LT649S so I can mount the PA deluxe 3x magnifier then time to go to the range.

[esskay]

After trying the grip all the way out there, I found it works great for a short period of time, however it drastically increases the fatigue factor the longer you do it.
So while it works great in competition, it is not very realistic for real life such as combat operations or SWAT use.
Sit outside a hostage standoff situation for hours on end and you WILL end up moving your hand further back.
Train for four days straight eight hours a day and you WILL end up moving your hand further back.
The issue is that your skeletal structure is much stronger than your musculature structure. You're trying to put all the weight of your rifle on your muscles, where as if you moved your hand further back then you could put most of it on your bones...in which case you would tire out a lot slower.
I still use the thumb over bore, and I still only use the vertical grip index point, I just do it further back on the rifle so my skeletal structure is bearing the brunt of the weight.
It is a compromise between what controls recoil the best and between what is practical for hours upon hours of running and gunning fatigue wise. It's what I was trained to do, and what works best for me after having put several techniques to the test.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I will argue that realistically you should only be in this position for a short period of time. If on patrol in the military your weapon is not pointed downrange, you are in the low-ready, therefore not under much physical stress. You only present when you get a known threat, and then you move to cover where most likely you will be shooting supported. I do see the more relevant situation for LEOs in a standoff situation, but here I would highly doubt that officers would be just standing in the open pointing there weapon towards the suspects position for more than a few minutes. Most likely they would be utilizing some piece of cover which would allow to shoot supported, be it a vehicle, wall, or just prone out on the deck. Even if the situation did present itself in which one would need to be constantly shooting I feel it is 100% doable, with proper training before hand. I have utilized this technique ever since I learned it a few years ago, and only in the very beginning (first few months) did I experience fatigue using the position. I have done many full training days since then, sometimes 3, 8 hour days in a row for classes and experienced no problems with fatigue. Keep in mind that I am by no means a buff dude, quite skinny to be honest. I think with enough practice and repetition you tone the right muscles and it doesn't even become a consideration. I am constantly doing dry drills in my down time, and I think this is a huge thing that often gets under-rated. It looks a bit silly, but if you devote the same seriousness and consistency as on the range, it will greatly improve your shooting and help you gain muscle memory as well as strength in the right places. This is all just my humble opinion of course.

Amen, brother, well said!

It is true that there is a trade off between a superior shooting technique and potential fatigue if your body is not yet sufficiently conditioned. Here is another way to think about this "compromise" -- think about what you are actually doing when you have that rifle in your hand and are ready to use it ... perhaps you're fighting for your life, maybe for your buddies or family's life, maybe you're deployed in some hell hole or serving a warrant, perhaps you're competing in a match.

If you are in this situation and you need to bring your gun to bear on a target and put it down, what should you prioritize? I think in this situation getting rounds on target quickly and accurately is arguably the highest priority!! So why compromise the superior shooting technique? (As an aside, some may argue that "not getting shot" is more important than getting rounds on target, but that arguably depends on your role and objective -- and would be a different debate in any case!)

Plus as Aftermath noted, you aren't realistically walking around 8 hours in a row with your rifle fully extended, on target, all the time.

This also highlights another vitally important issue: Physical conditioning is extremely important!

This seems to get short shrift a lot of the time amongst "gun guys." People put a lot of effort, thought, (and debate!) into shooting gear, techniques, etc etc... but many people neglect their diet and exercise regimen. Getting in better shape is the gift that keeps on giving! Everything about your shooting, movement, techniques, etc gets better, easier and more effective when you are in better shape and in fighting trim. The benefits are obvious for those in harm's way. For civilians too, you'll get more out of your training, practice, and competition. Put some of the toy budget into a gym membership, devote some time a couple times a week for exercise, stop drinking bottomless sodas and hitting fast food value meals 4x/week, and get your diet/nutrition in order. I say all this because this year, I finally made it a big personal priority to get myself back in shape, and it's been totally worth it. I'm surely still lame but so much healthier & stronger!

I remember in a carbine class, Jim Smith of Spartan was explaining the rationale behind extending your support hand as far forward on the rifle as possible (he calls it "shooting as much rifle as possible") to provide better control and recoil management. He said, "If the rifle feels too heavy as you push your hand forward, well... then you simply need to work out more!!"

ETA: One more thing -- everybody does have to analyze and think about how each technique/tactic/etc relates to their own personal specific situation (your task at hand, your body, your kit, etc).

Perhaps someone's physical characteristics make something which is a superior technique for most people not work for them; for example, I know someone who has a long-standing shoulder injury on his support side, and even though the modern isoceles stance is far superior to the Weaver stance for handgun, his left arm makes it unworkable... so Weaver works better for him.

If, for example, you don't care about follow up shots, don't have moving/multiple targets (and you're not moving), don't have any time pressure, etc... maybe the "high power" type of rifle stance will work for you.

And of course, you don't have to do the same thing for every situation either -- use the high power stance if you're shooting high power competition, use the more aggressive modern techniques for defensive situations, use competition techniques for matches.

Sorry for the continued thread drift... back on topic!

[dlouie87]

Amen, brother, well said!

What brand or barrel/muzzle/scope is that?

[Trendkill]

Interestingly enough....I have the same bathroom door...and door across the hallway haha

Yeah...but my tile is nicer right..??

[Trendkill]

Build Complete.

BCM M4 14.5 in bbl w/ pinned and welded phantom FH.

Complete BCM Receiver with Magpul MOE stock and Grip.

Magpul AFG

BCM marked Troy Rear Battle sight

Troy Sling Mount

Magpul Sling

Aimpoint T-1 with Larue QD mount

DD Omega Rail

[esskay]

What brand or barrel/muzzle/scope is that?

That's a 3-gun setup - a JP upper which was customized a bit, ending up as shown:
* 16" JP stainless barrel coated black (midlength gas)
* JP/Bennie Cooley muzzle brake
* JP/VTAC rifle length handguard (JP low profile adj gas block underneath)
* Meopta K-Dot 1-4x scope in a LaRue

[17+1]

No one here shoots irons...

[Trendkill]

No one here shoots irons...

Of course......its a skill/practice one should never abandon.

[ZX-10R]

Of course......its a skill/practice one should never abandon.

I do but on my WASR and my old Nylon 66.

[Trendkill]

I do but on my WASR and my old Nylon 66.

Yeah....I have to do it all the time with my handguns too....

[tacticalcity]

Amen, brother, well said!

It is true that there is a trade off between a superior shooting technique and potential fatigue if your body is not yet sufficiently conditioned. Here is another way to think about this "compromise" -- think about what you are actually doing when you have that rifle in your hand and are ready to use it ... perhaps you're fighting for your life, maybe for your buddies or family's life, maybe you're deployed in some hell hole or serving a warrant, perhaps you're competing in a match.

If you are in this situation and you need to bring your gun to bear on a target and put it down, what should you prioritize? I think in this situation getting rounds on target quickly and accurately is arguably the highest priority!! So why compromise the superior shooting technique? (As an aside, some may argue that "not getting shot" is more important than getting rounds on target, but that arguably depends on your role and objective -- and would be a different debate in any case!)

Plus as Aftermath noted, you aren't realistically walking around 8 hours in a row with your rifle fully extended, on target, all the time.

This also highlights another vitally important issue: Physical conditioning is extremely important!

This seems to get short shrift a lot of the time amongst "gun guys." People put a lot of effort, thought, (and debate!) into shooting gear, techniques, etc etc... but many people neglect their diet and exercise regimen. Getting in better shape is the gift that keeps on giving! Everything about your shooting, movement, techniques, etc gets better, easier and more effective when you are in better shape and in fighting trim. The benefits are obvious for those in harm's way. For civilians too, you'll get more out of your training, practice, and competition. Put some of the toy budget into a gym membership, devote some time a couple times a week for exercise, stop drinking bottomless sodas and hitting fast food value meals 4x/week, and get your diet/nutrition in order. I say all this because this year, I finally made it a big personal priority to get myself back in shape, and it's been totally worth it. I'm surely still lame but so much healthier & stronger!

I remember in a carbine class, Jim Smith of Spartan was explaining the rationale behind extending your support hand as far forward on the rifle as possible (he calls it "shooting as much rifle as possible") to provide better control and recoil management. He said, "If the rifle feels too heavy as you push your hand forward, well... then you simply need to work out more!!"

ETA: One more thing -- everybody does have to analyze and think about how each technique/tactic/etc relates to their own personal specific situation (your task at hand, your body, your kit, etc).

Perhaps someone's physical characteristics make something which is a superior technique for most people not work for them; for example, I know someone who has a long-standing shoulder injury on his support side, and even though the modern isoceles stance is far superior to the Weaver stance for handgun, his left arm makes it unworkable... so Weaver works better for him.

If, for example, you don't care about follow up shots, don't have moving/multiple targets (and you're not moving), don't have any time pressure, etc... maybe the "high power" type of rifle stance will work for you.

And of course, you don't have to do the same thing for every situation either -- use the high power stance if you're shooting high power competition, use the more aggressive modern techniques for defensive situations, use competition techniques for matches.

Sorry for the continued thread drift... back on topic!

Sorry guys, but it is NOT a question of conditioning. The most in shape person in the world will tire out if he is using all muscle, and no bone for a prolonged period of time. Bear in mind I am talking about being in the low ready most of the time and NOT being pointed in or at a high ready as that is poor technique as well. So while you see my moving my hand/arm further back in order to better support the rifle's weight as compromising accuracy and control, I see your not doing so as compromising accuracy and control. Because if you are completely fatigued when the time comes...you won't have either.

My priority is making sure that when the time comes to actually bring my weapon to bear and fire I still have the stamina, strength and speed to be as effective and efficient as I can be. I don't want to leave my A-game way back at two hours into an 8 hour standoff during which I have been waiting behind the gunman's location at the low ready waiting for the negotiator to stop blabbing and give me the go order. Can't let it hang, because that's not covering the rear exit. Got keep the door covered, which means rifle in hand and bearing at least some of its weight. Can't move my hand further back to rest it, because if I have to shoot my hand is now in completely different position from where it has been for the last couple years of training and it will throw me off and I might hit a hostage. And on and on...though admitadly I'll never be in that situation but my instructors who are SWAT members have been on more than one occassion.

It is the difference between theory and actual practice. I tried both during several days of 8 hours of training a day and determined the cost vs. reward was way too high and that by moving the grip the rear of the carbine length handguard, and still indexing it the way you do rather than using it like a broom handle, my hand falls directly in the middle of the handguard. After considerable trial and error and a great many rounds down range in as close to real world conditions as I could make the training be, that worked best for me.

This opinion was further backed up by the instructors, both of whom are active Yuba City SWAT team members. The brought up the example of a standoff of why using skeletal structure is important and why the Magpul/Vickers technique fails to measure up to real world applications.

I am not advocated the magwell grip or using the broom handle grip. I am just arguing against gripping so far forward your arm is practical straight and all the work is being done by your muscles. For short periods of time, like a competition, it is fine. However, for training and prolonged situations where you're supporting the rifle for hours on end (or whet ends up being the equevilent there of when added up) it fails to impress. Those situations come up in the real world all the time. Even if it were just a training issue, you only fight half as well as your last training session. So that matters too.

In any case, this is a really off topic debate for the picture thread, so I am going to just leave you with this...

If you guys want to debate it futher start a seperate thread and PM with the link. While we disogree it has thus far been a very friendly exchange of ideas and I would be happy to continue the debate. I am not sure what more I can add to it, other than I really did try several different positions and techniques and found my way works best for me for the reasons stated. If the way you use your rifle is different, and your needs and priorities are different, then I can see how your way would work for you. Nothing wrong with that. Heck even if your arms are different, as in freakishly long compared to mine which are relatively short I can see how it work better for you than for me. Just figured my experience might be food for thought.