San Bernardino

[DiamondDan73]

You will need your Fontana rejection letter when you have the Sheriff interview. I'd go pick the Sheriff packet and get on the list. Then turn in the PD packet. Fontana took about 30 days to get mine done.

Thanks for the heads up.

[bcsquare]

You will need your Fontana rejection letter when you have the Sheriff interview. I'd go pick the Sheriff packet and get on the list. Then turn in the PD packet. Fontana took about 30 days to get mine done.

I'm still curious about this one. The packet says to have a rejection letter but from what I understand, we're not required to have to go to a local PD first. Is this still true do we still have to go through this hoop?

Also anyone have any experience with Ontario PD?

[jww]

I'm still curious about this one. The packet says to have a rejection letter but from what I understand, we're not required to have to go to a local PD first. Is this still true do we still have to go through this hoop?

At the time of my interview, I had to have a letter from Fontana. It really wasn't a big deal. It took me 10 minutes to fill it out I think I waited 3-4 weeks for my letter to come back. They also sent back all of the checks I left.

[mrman5917]

Lasergrips not allowed if they cover a serial?

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum but have been browsing around for some time.

I just finished my first CCW interview this morning, and one of the ladies in the office (not the investigator assigned to my permit) got very upset that I had an aftermarket grip on my gun. I have a CrimsonTrace lasergrip on a S&W M&P 9c, and the laser diode just covers the serial number on the frame. I took the grip off in 3 seconds and she handed the firearm over to the investigator and told me "you can't use those grips on your gun if they cover the serial number, so don't ever carry with it." I let it go while I was there, but the more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.

Why would an easily removed piece of equipment that covers a serial number (only while installed) be unacceptable during carry? It doesn't modify the serial, it doesn't permanently alter or cover it, and 3 seconds and a twist of the takedown tool is all it takes to remove it to reveal the number. Is this just a case of an overzealous office worker that didn't like being inconvenienced, or am I not actually allowed to carry a weapon with the serial number temporarily covered?

[ke6guj]

Why would an easily removed piece of equipment that covers a serial number (only while installed) be unacceptable during carry? It doesn't modify the serial, it doesn't permanently alter or cover it, and 3 seconds and a twist of the takedown tool is all it takes to remove it to reveal the number. Is this just a case of an overzealous office worker that didn't like being inconvenienced, or am I not actually allowed to carry a weapon with the serial number temporarily covered?

because it does technically violate the PC against covering serial numbers.


537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred
fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding
six months.
(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty
dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one
year.

[mrman5917]

Thanks for the reply, I guess these grips get to go back after just receiving them yesterday. Sigh.

[DrDavid]

because it does technically violate the PC against covering serial numbers.

So I guess putting a gun in a holster with the serial number obstructed by the holster is illegal too? Or, "concealed" under clothing? By your body?

I'm pretty sure there's difference between "concealed" and "covered".

[ke6guj]

So I guess putting a gun in a holster with the serial number obstructed by the holster is illegal too? Or, "concealed" under clothing? By your body?

I'm pretty sure there's difference between "concealed" and "covered".

right, concealed by something temporary like a holster, clothing, in a guncase/safe is different that covered by something that takes tools to remove.

not saying that anytime you have grips or a tac-light covering a serial number that you are going to be arrested, just saying that per the PC, it might be violation. I was just giving a legal reason why the the LEA flipped out over the covered serial number.

[sully007]

What is good cause for app?


Just Saying!

[Dvrjon]

because it does technically violate the PC against covering serial numbers.
537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred
fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding
six months.
(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty
dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one
year.

I usually find myself fully agreeing with your observations, but I think this one needs a reconsideration.

(Sorry for the length, but I'm waiting for the Bride and may not have time to edit).

Title 13 (Sections 441 through 593), deals with crimes against property.
Chapter 8 of Title 13 deals with false person action and cheats. This Chapter includes section 537e.

First, the use of "concealed" in your quote does not relate to serial numbers. It refers to concealing property which has altered serial numbers. One method of "altering" a number is to conceal it, and is later articulated. However, the context of the section indicates the purpose of concealment is to cheat or defraud. Not to simply enhance the weapon.

If one reads the context of the Chapter, this is evident.

Second, statutes must be read as a whole, but you have only provided part of the citation. The next paragraphs give more specific context:

"537e.
(b) For purposes of this subdivision, "personal property"
includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano,
or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.
(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other
household appliance or furnishings.
(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other
office equipment or furnishings.
(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or
other part of a computer.
(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or
scientific equipment.
(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or
recreational equipment.
(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material,
or piece of apparatus or equipment.
(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.
(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.

While the first sentence allows the addition of other property to be considered in this definition, the presented items give a clear picture of the type of items covered. With such a large span of items, it would have been very simple (and not unreasonable) for the Legislature to include firearms if that was their intent. Since they left them out, one must surmise that the Legislature did not see a need here, probably because Penal Code section 23900 has firearm serial numbers "covered".

23900. Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Moreover, the actions of the law enforcement personnel, in spite of the clerk's admonition, do not comport with what the statute tells them to do:

...one of the ladies in the office (not the investigator assigned to my permit) got very upset that I had an aftermarket grip on my gun. I have a CrimsonTrace lasergrip on a S&W M&P 9c, and the laser diode just covers the serial number on the frame. I took the grip off in 3 seconds and she handed the firearm over to the investigator and told me "you can't use those grips on your gun if they cover the serial number, so don't ever carry with it." I let it go while I was there, but the more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.

If this were a violation, Penal Code 537e. (c) is explicit to their actions:
" (c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the
custody of a peace officer it shall become subject to the provision
of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2,
relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property
subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled
property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being
disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved
in, or permanently affixed to it.

The fact that law enforcement was aware of this covering, but did not arrest the owner and confiscate the weapon, as directed under subdivision (c) clearly shows this instance is not covered under this statute.

The clerk was wrong. The grips are good to go (unless lasers are not allowed by the IA).

Cheers.

JR

The above is an evaluation of written code and a specific incident by a rank amateur who holds no professional certifications to expound on anything. It's value may or may not be worth what you paid to receive it.

[HowardW56]

right, concealed by something temporary like a holster, clothing, in a guncase/safe is different that covered by something that takes tools to remove.

not saying that anytime you have grips or a tac-light covering a serial number that you are going to be arrested, just saying that per the PC, it might be violation. I was just giving a legal reason why the the LEA flipped out over the covered serial number.

I have to disagree...

Think about older Smith & Wesson revolvers, the stocks (grips) covered the serial number. To read the serial number the stocks had to be removed....

[mrman5917]

Dvrjon that's essentially what I had been coming to get from others I had been talking to, that covering the number isn't in and of itself a problem unless it's being done with or to assist with some sort of subversion. I think I caught the clerk on a bad day and just happened to provide an outlet for it. During this process I'll probably leave the grips at home and just use them for when I carry which was the original intent. Don't really care to test the waters with anyone else.

That said, in my research, S&W sells an M&P9c with the CT grips pre-installed, covering the number from the factory. Only rub is that since it comes with standard capacity 12-round magazines, they don't sell it directly in CA. Their suggestion to me when I was first looking at the 9c was to purchase the CA-approved 10-round package with the grips aftermarket.

[huntercf]

How long is it taking to go through the process of getting a CCW in SB?

[ke6guj]

I usually find myself fully agreeing with your observations, but I think this one needs a reconsideration.

(Sorry for the length, but I'm waiting for the Bride and may not have time to edit).

Title 13 (Sections 441 through 593), deals with crimes against property.
Chapter 8 of Title 13 deals with false person action and cheats. This Chapter includes section 537e.

First, the use of "concealed" in your quote does not relate to serial numbers. It refers to concealing property which has altered serial numbers. One method of "altering" a number is to conceal it, and is later articulated. However, the context of the section indicates the purpose of concealment is to cheat or defraud. Not to simply enhance the weapon.

in my original post, I stated "covered", not "concealed". I was refering to the covered serial number, not the concealed property.

537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:

that can be minimized down to " Any person who knowingly has in his or her possession any personal property from which the manufacturer's serial number has been covered is guilty of a public offense punishable as follows:"

If one reads the context of the Chapter, this is evident.

Second, statutes must be read as a whole, but you have only provided part of the citation. The next paragraphs give more specific context:

"537e.
(b) For purposes of this subdivision, "personal property"
includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano,
or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.
(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other
household appliance or furnishings.
(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other
office equipment or furnishings.
(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or
other part of a computer.
(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or
scientific equipment.
(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or
recreational equipment.
(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material,
or piece of apparatus or equipment.
(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.
(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.

While the first sentence allows the addition of other property to be considered in this definition, the presented items give a clear picture of the type of items covered. With such a large span of items, it would have been very simple (and not unreasonable) for the Legislature to include firearms if that was their intent. Since they left them out, one must surmise that the Legislature did not see a need here, probably because Penal Code section 23900 has firearm serial numbers "covered".

23900. Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

I posted what I felt was the pertinent part of the code. with the definition of "personal property" being open "not limited to", I would not automatically discount it unless there was case law on the subject.

Moreover, the actions of the law enforcement personnel, in spite of the clerk's admonition, do not comport with what the statute tells them to do:


If this were a violation, Penal Code 537e. (c) is explicit to their actions:
" (c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the
custody of a peace officer it shall become subject to the provision
of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2,
relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property
subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled
property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being
disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved
in, or permanently affixed to it.

The fact that law enforcement was aware of this covering, but did not arrest the owner and confiscate the weapon, as directed under subdivision (c) clearly shows this instance is not covered under this statute.

or, the LEA was being lenient (SBSO isn't LAPD) for something that could be fixed easily. Perhaps the clerk didn't want to cause drama over a minor misdemeanor over it. potentially, a good case of officer discretion when the offending part could be easily removed and made "legal".

The clerk was wrong. The grips are good to go (unless lasers are not allowed by the IA).

Cheers.

JR

The above is an evaluation of written code and a specific incident by a rank amateur who holds no professional certifications to expound on anything. It's value may or may not be worth what you paid to receive it.

I was just giving my opinion on what the clerk might have been relying on when they told mrman it wasn't bueno.

I think if it was me, I would have asked them if it was legal for the officers to carry their Glocks with mounted tac-lights, since those cover the serial number as well (the "official" serial number on the frame).

[ke6guj]

Think about older Smith & Wesson revolvers, the stocks (grips) covered the serial number. To read the serial number the stocks had to be removed....

true, but don't most of them have another copy of the serial number behind the yoke that can be seen when you flip out the cylinder?


just because many people cover the serial number on a firearm with accessories (shotgun side saddles being a common example) or grips, doesn't mean that it might technically be illegal. I'm not saying that you will be arrested, but it could potentially be an issue for a "by the book" LEO. mrman ran into a situation where it came up an an otherwise peaceful encounter and was told to fix it. that sounds like, if the LEO was correct in the reading of the law, officer discretion instead of "off to jail you go".