Seller Says Don't Release It

[BannedinBritain]

Hey John,

It is going to be a beautiful day!

I think Jim answered you (and the rest of us) when he posted this:

Wow, leave for a few minutes and off the thread goes...

I'm leaning towards siding with the seller since I heard the back and forth between them in my shop. The buyer still owes > $1000 and the seller said it needed to be paid before the pickup day. The buyer agreed. Why some people here think the buyer OWNS something he hasn't paid for, I don't know. I will be sitting on things until the "contract" they verbally agreed to in front of me is complete.

Thanks for the input and entertainment.

Nuff said in my book...think I'm gonna take a half day and visit one of my favorite pubs down by the beach.

[halifax]

Which leads me to Jim... you haven't answered my question yet.

I am very interested to know... what have you decided to do...?

John, seller is in contact with the buyer trying to work it out. Yesterday was 1st pickup day and buyer made no attempt to contact me. We'll see. PM sent.

[ZirconJohn]

Ah... I see... thank you Jim.

I know everything will work out good for you... you are a good person, a
good business owner and stand-up guy.

Great to hear there are no serious problems.

Nice job... jd

[tenpercentfirearms]

what FUD, are you a lawyer, im not a lawyer, unless you can cite the actual rules in your FFL handbook that cover this situation in a DROS, my opinion is the same as yours, your business is being an FFL, good for you, doesnt mean your right. not even close.


really? the alphabets wouldnt care if a person, myself, who just passed on a DROS, told them that you stole a gun from me? all they hear is a FFL is doing something wrong and is being complained about.

That i paid for a gun, my word against the other sellers and you decided on your own due to being friends with the seller, that i didint get the gun and you gave it back to the seller? it WOULD end up in court, Ive taken people to small claims, and ive gotten paid. Ive been taken to small claims and they got paid.

Take me to court. You would lose for the simple fact I have nothing to do with your case. The seller has your firearm, not me. Did you provide a written request to PPT with all terms of the transaction signed by the buyer and seller? No? Then I do not have to perform your PPT and when I realized you did not have such document, I canceled the transaction and released the firearm back to the seller as is required when I can't legally deliver the firearm to the buyer.

anyone can sue anyone, your still going to lose a day in small claims court.

As will you.

The FFL is a supposed business owner and has insurance, you WILL pay the small claims when its proven you stole from me and didint perform your duty.

Except it won't be proven. I didn't steal anything from you. Prove that you didn't steal from the seller? Where is your contract? Where is your receipt? Ah you see, if you had such documentation, then there would be no point in my keeping your firearm and I woudl release it. Again, the idea here is a somewhat trusted customer reports that the firearm has not been paid for yet and he is requesting you not release the firearm until it is paid for. Again, the responsible dealer is going to call the buyer and confirm. Or as in this specific case the FFL heard the details of the transaction and realizes that is what the two parties agreed to.

you said it yourself, your there to perform a service, not be a referee between two people doing a transaction.

So when in doubt, cancel the transaction and give the firearm back to the seller. Next time follow the law and request your PPT in writting signed by both parties and list the terms of the transaction.

as tripper said, your there to complete a legal transaction, to make sure of only one thing, that a firearms transaction is done legally for the Fed's and California DOJ.

What penal code section would that be? I can serve many purposes. I can even serve nefarious purposes. You still don't have a case.

and one on my points, the buyer doesnt have a personal relationship with you, he loses a gun he paid for. He has nothign to lose to try to make your life miserable, calling the alphabets, calling the local police.

Please, call the alphabets. I deal with them all the time. They do not care. Nor will they when I state I was uncomfortable with the transaction, I canceled it, and I will let the two parties figure it out in civil court. The alphabets who want me to also have the power to cancel criminally suspicious transaction and report that type of activity are not going to tell me not do that anymore. They are going to back me up.

The local police? Not only are they my good customers, but they know the law too. There isn't a darn thing you can do to me over this. Take it to court.

Telling every single person that will listen that the FFL screwed him over, if your a "businessman" you know word of mouth is key to keeping your business going. If someone feels slighted they do nothing but bash your business for the rest of their life.

It goes both ways. Do I piss off the regular customer or the guy I don't know that supposedly hasn't paid and doesn't have a receipt?

Hell at this point, if i lived in your area and a buddy was going to do a PPT in your shop, i would tell him to stay away based on your stated opinion that you are the arbiter of whether or not he gets his gun based on YOUR opinion if he deserves it. Which is what you said

Please quote me. When did I say that? Please don't tell people not to PPT with me! That would be horrible!

Now I am just yanking your chain. Again, you are taking this too personal. The point in my being a devil's advocate is to help you understand you have no position here. Rather than try and tell a dealer what he does and doesn't have to do from a position of ignorance and a lack of actual codes and facts, realize this type of situation requires tact. A dealer can cancel a DROS for any reason.

If the people paid for dros and you charged him 10.00, and california approves the DROS, what grounds do you have for cancelling it on pickup?

" he was black, i didint like that"
"he was old, i dont like old people"
"i didint feel comfortable, so i cancelled it" which is what you said, and would be a lie is we are going by the OP, since he says its strictly because one of the parties is a regular customer.

That is anything but a lie. I was concerned that the buyer had not paid as he did not return my calls nor show a paid receipt. So I canceled the transaction since he failed to produce anything to counter the argument of the selller and I will let the buyer and seller sort it out on their own. Again, how are you going to nail me down on that one?

This is all 100% the sellers fault for selling something and not getting paid up front. You do those types of deals between friends, not between strangers buying and selling guns.

It might be the sellers fault. It also might be the buyers fault for not getting a paid receipt and/or agreeing to start a transaction on a firearm they hadn't paid for.

Or it might not really be anyone's fault as the situation is not the you are trying to make it into. Both parties in the OPs example know the details and know what was said and that is why the buyer has not been in demanding their firearm. The buyer knows the agreed contract has not been completed and the buyer is not trying to steal the firearm from the unpaid seller.

[halifax]

All is well in Paradise again.

Seller got his money. Buyer got his pistol.

Sorry for inciting all the drama with this thread but I was really only asking for other FFL's opinions like the forum title says:

FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs.

[ZirconJohn]

All is well in Paradise again.

Seller got his money. Buyer got his pistol.

Sorry for inciting all the drama with this thread but I was really only asking for other FFL's opinions like the forum title says:

I knew you could do it Jim... you are a good person

[halifax]

Ah shucks, John.

Thanks

[tenpercentfirearms]

All is well in Paradise again.

Seller got his money. Buyer got his pistol.

Sorry for inciting all the drama with this thread but I was really only asking for other FFL's opinions like the forum title says:

Yeah I already reported you to the Better Business Bureau, ATF, and DOJ. You had no right to do the right thing. Shame on you.

[ZirconJohn]

Yeah I already reported you to the Better Business Bureau, ATF, and DOJ. You had no right to do the right thing. Shame on you.

HHhahahahaaa... That there ^^^ is funny...

[halifax]

Yeah I already reported you to the Better Business Bureau, ATF, and DOJ. You had no right to do the right thing. Shame on you.

So that is why the blacked-out Suburbans and helicopters have been hanging around. Thanks Wes.

[tenpercentfirearms]

So that is why the blacked-out Suburbans and helicopters have been hanging around. Thanks Wes.

Yup, that is the BBB.

[halifax]

[rsrocket1]

10%:
I don't think Jim would have really been worried until you contacted Angie's list.

[kemasa]

The bottom line is that there is just under 30 days to work everything out and unless the facts are in dispute, the delivery should wait until everyone agrees. In this case, it would be best to have a contract which states that the firearm is not to be delivered until the final payment is made and have both parties sign off on it and also sign off that the terms have been met.

Some of the opinions are interesting though. If a person bought a firearm from a retail FFL out of state and it was delivered to a CA FFL, who started the FFL, but before the waiting period was up the out of state FFL called and said that the payment was made with a fraudulent credit card, would you still say that since the paperwork was started that the transfer should continue?

It is also interesting to see the concept of ownership also pop up :-). Paying for an item such as a firearm does not mean a change in ownership as the paperwork has to be done. Ownership only changes when the paperwork is done.

[ron1950]

My question to the OP is how would you have handled the situation if you:

1. Did not know either party and neither was a known customer.

2. Did not hear any part of the sales conversation where buyer had not paid in full.

3. Seller then claims that buyer had not fully paid for the gun before 10 day wait was over.

Thanks