Seller Says Don't Release It

[Tripper]

i like this scenario..

from a legal standpoint, can you even release it back to the seller? as of the day they signed the paperwork for the PPT , its not his anymore... its the buyers. your not an escrow agent. your not acting as a seller or buyer agent, your acting as an agent of the california dept of justice to make sure all rules are followed in the transfer.

paperwork was done, seller signed off on it.

when does the DROS paperwork with serial number get sent to the CADOJ ?

i doubt its on the tenth day when you let them pick up, its on the first day when you submit it. even if its a rifle, wouldnt it be the same?

What EXACTLY does the DROS process entail? obviously its dealers record of Sale. but the 10 day and the pick up are a formality.

what grounds would you have for not releasing it to the buyer?

He shows up, his DROS was approved by the CADOJ, and you refuse to release it. Could he call the police and say your attempting to steal something from him?

If this happened to me, i think that would be the route I would take, I would call the CADOJ first, and then the police second.

Would this get you in hot water with the CADOJ as far as not following the rules on PPT's? are there rules written down on the process?

seems to me sellers only recourse is to take the buyer to small claims.

Yep

[Tripper]

Owning the store is extreme
My point, is it worth that kind of risk
As careful as ffl's have to be, is it worth losing your FFL over something like this
Is that 'good customer' gonna pay your bills while your fighting to get your FFL back?
Honestly I don't know if your FFL could be revoked but it seems they are revoked for less

[JaMail]

^^^^ this ^^^^ if you dont know the buyer, he has no feelings towards you, all he knows is some 3rd party guy is telling him something he cant have something he bought and paid for. so he calls ATF, he calls CADOJ, you get screwed. he doesnt care. he just wants his gun.

is your regular customer that important to you? does he buy that much stuff, do you know 100% for sure that he is a stand up guy?

[G-forceJunkie]

This is the second thread that has me question when exactaly legal ownership of a firearm happens in California. Most things, as soon as money is extanges, the buyer is the legal owner. So in the case of firearm PPT's in California, at what exact point is ownership transfered:
1) When money is extanged? Appears not if the FFL is required to give the gun back to the seller if dros fails.
2) When dros is started?
3) After 240hours, but before 30 days and dros is not denyed?
4) After dros is closed and firearm picked up?

If California is going to force FFL's to be an escrow company, they should hold the payment as well.

[tenpercentfirearms]

^^^^ this ^^^^ if you dont know the buyer, he has no feelings towards you, all he knows is some 3rd party guy is telling him something he cant have something he bought and paid for. so he calls ATF, he calls CADOJ, you get screwed. he doesnt care. he just wants his gun.

is your regular customer that important to you? does he buy that much stuff, do you know 100% for sure that he is a stand up guy?

FUD. The CA DOJ and the BATFE doesn't care what you do with a customer's gun as long as you are following the law. So if you won't release the firearm, they alphabet agencies don't care. They aren't going to do a darn thing about it and you definitely are not going to lose your license.

As was said by the OP, he witnesses them in the middle of the transaction in their store. The buyer agreed to pay the seller the rest of the money before the end of the 10 day wait. If they buyer has not followed through, don't deliver the firearm. Let the buyer sue if he wants. He either payed or he didn't.

Again, you non-FFLs can try to pretend like we have to deliver your gun all you want, we don't have to. We can cancel the DROS and give it back to the seller if we want. There isn't a darn thing you can do about it. You can sue in small claims, but as anyone who really knows about small claims will tell you, good luck getting that enforced. If he paid, then any claims would be between him and the seller as I would simply state I wasn't comfortable with the transaction, cancelled it, and told them to take their PPT elsewhere.

Oh I am required to process your PPT? Only if you both make that request in writing signed by both parties with all terms of the transaction included.

And maybe that is what dealers out to start doing to protect themselves from this situation.

Again, people seem to be going to the extremes in this thread. Just use common sense and do the right thing. There is no need for the FFL to screw anyone. Just help facilitate communication and make sure as far as you can everyone gets a fair deal.

[Tripper]

the comment about everyone having their opinion, even if its wrong
you might want to consult an attorney and see who might be wrong, given that facts that were established.
again, it might be dificult to own the store, but, the ffl holder i'm sure would have a lot more difficult time than I.
I walk out, I make complaint to the appropriate authorities, and someone gets a visit

FFL's are under enough pressure from the powers that be, why push something like that. even if youheard the verbal in front of you, have you also been present at every encounter they have had, possibly the encounter where the seller was getting a payment, and made another deal with the buyer, then the wife got upset and he 'changed' his mind. too many variables for you to end up being in the middle.
but really, you should probably consult an attorney. I dont think you have a leg to stand on, and I think you'd be the one in trouble if you were to hold the gun hostage.

If you'd like a true story of a very similar situation with a motorcycle, PM me, I'll tell you a bit more.
ahh, heck i'll tell it here

I purchased a motorcycle, long ago, via PPT, I took said motorcycle to the shop for a tuneup, the original buyer of motorcycle, still owed money for the purchase of said motorcycle from same shop actually. shop owner, decided since the original buyer owed him money, he would hold the cycle hostage. He called police because I was not leaving without MY property, police arrived, and wow, i didnt leave in a black/white, go figure. I wonder why. I'll let you figure out why it would have worked out that way.

I could have pushed it, and could have made his life very uncomfortable, but didnt, the fact still remains I could have, and to this day, he knows it.
I dont see that alot diff than a PPT of a firearm, regardless of a deal made between buyer/seller, IMO you, have no authority to enforce their agreement, and it could go very badly, unless you accidentally get someone like me, that takes it right to the edge and lets you off.
maybe call the cops even, and tell them what your thinking of doing, ask them what charges could/might be levied against the buyer, or the ffl, call DOJ, ask them if you can, I think you bound yourself really, your right, my opinion, but I'd hope you'd consider it very seriously, and protect yourself by consulting an attorney.

Good Luck

[Tripper]

I thought, dont know, but if a PPT didnt go through, the original seller, had to DROS it back, if that is correct, I think the beginning of the DROS, is when the original owner loses ownership. that could only apply to consignment though as far as i know. i think that idea was mentioned when talking about a consignment

and no, I dont think FFL's should be escrow agents, I do think they are bound in certain ways, I dont think you can just cancel a DROS, just cause, i think you can if you have reason to beleive their might be illegal activiyt involved, but I dont think you can just becuase your 'good customer' changed his mind, or says he didnt get paid, if you can do that as an FFL, its wrong morally, although, I do agree that it could also be considered morraly wrong to transfer the gun to someone that hasnt 'made good on their word'
Both parts are just wrong

[tenpercentfirearms]

the comment about everyone having their opinion, even if its wrong
you might want to consult an attorney and see who might be wrong, given that facts that were established.
again, it might be dificult to own the store, but, the ffl holder i'm sure would have a lot more difficult time than I.
I walk out, I make complaint to the appropriate authorities, and someone gets a visit

A visit from whom? The DOJ? The BATFE? Sorry, I am calling your FUD here. The CA DOJ and the BATFE are not concerned about your civil matter. How do I know? I am an FFL. It is my business. I know my auditors. They hardly have time to audit me, let alone get involved in your civil matter.

I dont think you have a leg to stand on, and I think you'd be the one in trouble if you were to hold the gun hostage.

There isn't a darn thing you can do about it. Again worst case scenario I cancel the transaction and give it back to the seller. You deal with it now, I am out of the equation and I will not process your PPT with out a request with all terms of the transaction signed by the buyer and seller as is required of you by law in order for me to process a PPT.

I purchased a motorcycle, long ago, via PPT, I took said motorcycle to the shop for a tuneup, the original buyer of motorcycle, still owed money for the purchase of said motorcycle from same shop actually. shop owner, decided since the original buyer owed him money, he would hold the cycle hostage. He called police because I was not leaving without MY property, police arrived, and wow, i didnt leave in a black/white, go figure. I wonder why. I'll let you figure out why it would have worked out that way.

That isn't really applicable here. Horrible example. However, if you want to know how your similar situation would be handled in the gun business, check out this old thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=44139

I could have pushed it, and could have made his life very uncomfortable, but didnt, the fact still remains I could have, and to this day, he knows it.
I dont see that alot diff than a PPT of a firearm, regardless of a deal made between buyer/seller, IMO you, have no authority to enforce their agreement, and it could go very badly, unless you accidentally get someone like me, that takes it right to the edge and lets you off.
maybe call the cops even, and tell them what your thinking of doing, ask them what charges could/might be levied against the buyer, or the ffl, call DOJ, ask them if you can, I think you bound yourself really, your right, my opinion, but I'd hope you'd consider it very seriously, and protect yourself by consulting an attorney.

Good Luck

Again bad example on your part as a dealer trying to hold onto your property for a third party debt has nothing to do with a buyer not paying a seller. Sorry, I am not buying your FUD. I simply cancel the DROS and you can calll the cops all you want. Not a darn thing you can do about it as I cannot legally transfer your firearm once the DROS is canceled.

Yeah this has turned into a pissing match. I would never do any of this ever as it is horrible customer service. Just recognize that if a dealer really wants to screw you on this scenario they can. It will make you a wiser negotiator as right now, you are picking a fight you will not win. Know where you have leverage and where you do not. Your motorcycle example gave you some leverage. None of these firearms transaction related scenarios give the buyer any leverage.

I dont think you can just cancel a DROS, just cause, i think you can if you have reason to beleive their might be illegal activiyt involved, but I dont think you can just becuase your 'good customer' changed his mind, or says he didnt get paid, if you can do that as an FFL, its wrong morally, although, I do agree that it could also be considered morraly wrong to transfer the gun to someone that hasnt 'made good on their word'
Both parts are just wrong

We pretty much can cancel DROS for any reason. It would not be hard to make up some reason why we didn't feel comfortable about the transaction.

Thanks to a Riflegear post recently, there is a good case made that if a firearm cannot be legally delivered, the gun goes back to the seller. If a dealer cancels DROS, it can't legally be delivered. Sure it is the dealer's fault, but the penal code doesn't specify why it can't legally be delivered. We usually assume it is because the buyer is prohibited. http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=462981

[Tripper]

you hit the nail on the head
you said this
"let alone get involved in your civil matter." in reference to DOJ
DOJ doesnt care, its a civil matter, and its MY civil matter at that.
during a PPT you are simply an arm of the DOJ to process the DROS, you have no reason to get involved in the civil matter, which you stated yourself DOJ doesnt care, why do you, is he really that good of a customer. He could be using his good customer status to pull the shade over someones eyes too, dont tell me something like thats never happened in real life, what if the buyer was 'another' of your really good customers, how would it work then?
the proper documents were signed when the seller originally signed the paperwork, no further action required, or has FFL's been needing a second signature from buyers all along I've never seen the seller on pickup of my PPT'd firearms, his signature was on the form day 1.
You mention its a bad example for the motorcycle, being a 3rd party debt, what is this, you re the 3rd party in this case, trying to get in the middle of someone elses debt, that may or may not be valid.
for all you know, you just cancelled a dros, and the buyer gave the seller the money already, the good customer just never bothered to tell you

I'm glad to hear you say you wouldn't proceed in that fashion, I've read a number of your posts and this actually surprised me from you.
I actually thought it was you advocating the enforcement of dealers to complete PPTs properly, and if a dealer decided not to process a PPT, he should be held to the fire as they should only be denying processing as a result of suspicion of unlawful activity.

and no, its not a pissing match, its very informative, but i do think its misleading in some ways.

[Tripper]

legal or not, i think its wrong for a dealer to be able to cancel a DROS just because

that customers a better customer than this one

which is what this comes down to

if you cancel the DROS, based on that other guys word, and I legitimately paid the other guy, and the deal didnt go through, due to your cancelling, and seller, got his money AND got to keep the gun, I think you just participated in a theft of my property.

and yes, I would call the police and report the theft, and name you and the seller as suspects, it would be investigated whether you thought it was ok or not.

[JaMail]

FUD. The CA DOJ and the BATFE doesn't care what you do with a customer's gun as long as you are following the law. So if you won't release the firearm, they alphabet agencies don't care. They aren't going to do a darn thing about it and you definitely are not going to lose your license.

As was said by the OP, he witnesses them in the middle of the transaction in their store. The buyer agreed to pay the seller the rest of the money before the end of the 10 day wait. If they buyer has not followed through, don't deliver the firearm. Let the buyer sue if he wants. He either payed or he didn't.

Again, you non-FFLs can try to pretend like we have to deliver your gun all you want, we don't have to. We can cancel the DROS and give it back to the seller if we want. There isn't a darn thing you can do about it. You can sue in small claims, but as anyone who really knows about small claims will tell you, good luck getting that enforced. If he paid, then any claims would be between him and the seller as I would simply state I wasn't comfortable with the transaction, cancelled it, and told them to take their PPT elsewhere.

Oh I am required to process your PPT? Only if you both make that request in writing signed by both parties with all terms of the transaction included.

And maybe that is what dealers out to start doing to protect themselves from this situation.

Again, people seem to be going to the extremes in this thread. Just use common sense and do the right thing. There is no need for the FFL to screw anyone. Just help facilitate communication and make sure as far as you can everyone gets a fair deal.

what FUD, are you a lawyer, im not a lawyer, unless you can cite the actual rules in your FFL handbook that cover this situation in a DROS, my opinion is the same as yours, your business is being an FFL, good for you, doesnt mean your right. not even close.


really? the alphabets wouldnt care if a person, myself, who just passed on a DROS, told them that you stole a gun from me? all they hear is a FFL is doing something wrong and is being complained about.


That i paid for a gun, my word against the other sellers and you decided on your own due to being friends with the seller, that i didint get the gun and you gave it back to the seller? it WOULD end up in court, Ive taken people to small claims, and ive gotten paid. Ive been taken to small claims and they got paid.

anyone can sue anyone, your still going to lose a day in small claims court.

When I was taken to small claims over a fender bender, my insurance company had someone there, the check was paid the next day.

The FFL is a supposed business owner and has insurance, you WILL pay the small claims when its proven you stole from me and didint perform your duty.

you said it yourself, your there to perform a service, not be a referee between two people doing a transaction.

as tripper said, your there to complete a legal transaction, to make sure of only one thing, that a firearms transaction is done legally for the Fed's and California DOJ.

and one on my points, the buyer doesnt have a personal relationship with you, he loses a gun he paid for. He has nothign to lose to try to make your life miserable, calling the alphabets, calling the local police.

Telling every single person that will listen that the FFL screwed him over, if your a "businessman" you know word of mouth is key to keeping your business going. If someone feels slighted they do nothing but bash your business for the rest of their life.

Hell at this point, if i lived in your area and a buddy was going to do a PPT in your shop, i would tell him to stay away based on your stated opinion that you are the arbiter of whether or not he gets his gun based on YOUR opinion if he deserves it. Which is what you said

If the people paid for dros and you charged him 10.00, and california approves the DROS, what grounds do you have for cancelling it on pickup?

" he was black, i didint like that"
"he was old, i dont like old people"
"i didint feel comfortable, so i cancelled it" which is what you said, and would be a lie is we are going by the OP, since he says its strictly because one of the parties is a regular customer.



This is all 100% the sellers fault for selling something and not getting paid up front. You do those types of deals between friends, not between strangers buying and selling guns.

[paul0660]

and yes, I would call the police and report the theft, and name you and the seller as suspects, it would be investigated whether you thought it was ok or not.

They would listen to your story and say "wrong number, this is nine one two."

[BannedinBritain]

during a PPT you are simply an arm of the DOJ to process the DROS,

Wrong. As I said...we're not just "tools" of the powers that be...or of the customer's that be either. As Wes said, I can cancel a DROS if I don't like the way a customer looks at me...you don't have to like that...but it is fact.

He could be using his good customer status to pull the shade over someones eyes too, dont tell me something like thats never happened in real life, what if the buyer was 'another' of your really good customers, how would it work then?

Yeah...this happens every other hour...that's how they get to be "good" customers dontchaknow. I will tell you your "scenario" has never happened in my "real life". In my mind, there is just way too much with this.[/QUOTE]

the proper documents were signed when the seller originally signed the paperwork, no further action required, or has FFL's been needing a second signature from buyers all along I've never seen the seller on pickup of my PPT'd firearms, his signature was on the form day 1.

I can't stress this enough, so I'm writing in pretty colors to tell you YOU DON'T "OWN" THE FIREARM UNTIL YOU SIGN ON PICK-UP DAY AND I HAND IT TO YOU...THE TRANSACTION "TRANSFER" IS NOT COMPLETE UNTIL THAT POINT...GOT IT???

for all you know, you just cancelled a dros, and the buyer gave the seller the money already, the good customer just never bothered to tell you

Again...

I'm glad to hear you say you wouldn't proceed in that fashion, I've read a number of your posts and this actually surprised me from you.
I actually thought it was you advocating the enforcement of dealers to complete PPTs properly, and if a dealer decided not to process a PPT, he should be held to the fire as they should only be denying processing as a result of suspicion of unlawful activity.

You have added "facts" where they don't exist and ignored the facts of what Jim originally posted and what I originally told him...hypothesized about what-ifs, and generally acted as if the advice I gave Jim is what we do on a regular basis...so who is driving this bus?

legal or not, i think its wrong for a dealer to be able to cancel a DROS just because

We are given that leeway for MANY good reasons.

if you cancel the DROS, based on that other guys word, and I legitimately paid the other guy, and the deal didnt go through, due to your cancelling, and seller, got his money AND got to keep the gun, I think you just participated in a theft of my property.

Let me see...That's 1 "if", 1 "based on", 4 "and"s, and a "due to" to boot. But really, the "I think" at the end is the best part.

and yes, I would call the police and report the theft, and name you and the seller as suspects, it would be investigated whether you thought it was ok or not.

And if they even bothered to send a unit to the shop, in very short order the officers would advise you that you would need to sue in civil court. Again...this is all based on 1 "if", 1 "based on", 4 "and"s, and a "due to", along with an "I think".


Wow...that post just took up too much of my life...I'm going to go get some coffee and a donut.

[DannyInSoCal]

It's a civil or small claims matter - Don't get involved or you are asking for a crap storm of legal issues.

The seller never should've agreed to start the DROS without full payment.

A simple one page - Three sentence disclaimer signed by both parties would solve this...

[ZirconJohn]

.
Good morning everbody... Wes/TPF, paul0660, Jim/halifax, BiB, Trippr, JM... etc
If I did not include your name, very sorry... good morning everbody.

Have any y'all looked outside...?

It's going to be another FINE DAY...!

All topical posts are very interesting, but I am NOT a fictional reader... I like
non-fiction stories. Very interesting posts, and I can agree with some and
disagree with some... but doesn't tell us the answer. I want an answer.

Which leads me to Jim... you haven't answered my question yet.

I am very interested to know... what have you decided to do...?