What would be a 'fair' PPT charge?

[bohoki]

Do that and see how many dealers you have left in the state.

Think about what you're saying. Let's say you own a car dealership and CA passed a law saying that all car sales must go through a dealership, but dealerships must handle the transaction upon demand and process all the paperwork for free. In addition, they must store the car in their lot for 10days during the "registration period" for free. Is that reasonable?

yes if the state requites a person to go through a dealer its just a cost of buisness if you dont like it quit

they could always just sell their customer list made up from the dros forms and offer an opt out fee of $10

[Librarian]

So, if we use a 'floor' of $22/hr labor costs, a PPT session with buyer and seller might run $3.67/10 min, $5.50/15 min, $7.33/20 min or $11/30 min.

Some in this thread have suggested that the overt paperwork phase is less than the other things needed.

Buyer and seller walk out the door - what happens next in the shop, associated with that PPT?

[ke6guj]

Well, the whole 1 gun shop in town thing happens now with things the way they are...that's just plain old capitalism...if there is a need, someone will step in and fill it...there's plenty of towns with no gun shop. Should government step in and mandate one or more gun shops per town? Nobody says you have to use a particular shop...you pay for convenience. If I know you have to drive 300 miles to get a service I offer, I'm going to charge a fee that the market will bear. Until competition steps in that is. You have a right to keep and bear arms...not a right to have cheap and convenient service.

right, but remember that a competitor just cant decide to open up a new gunshop overnight. There may be many roadblocks in the way. local zoning ordinances (that the existing gunshop might be grandfathered into), CADOJ/BATFE paperwork, etc. the 1 gun shop in town may not have a legal monopoly, but it might be an effective monopoly in which the chance to see capitalism in action is restricted.

[dachan]

So, if we use a 'floor' of $22/hr labor costs, a PPT session with buyer and seller might run $3.67/10 min, $5.50/15 min, $7.33/20 min or $11/30 min.

Some in this thread have suggested that the overt paperwork phase is less than the other things needed.

Buyer and seller walk out the door - what happens next in the shop, associated with that PPT?

Don't get it with the $22/hr labor cost. That would only work if you only had to pay an employee when he/she is doing a PPT. Maybe you can have pre-scheduled PPT appointments and have the employee come in and pay him/her only if a PPT is scheduled.

Sounds about right to me. Again, I would be happy to break even and get the free advertising, better than free advertising actually since they have to physically come in your store.

Doesn't mean they will buy anything, a business still has to make a profit to stay in business.

By requiring that we go to a dealer, but then not limiting the dealer, the government is handing a constitutionally-protected right over to private industry. In heavily-populated areas the effect would be less pronounced because there is so much competition, but in rural areas, the cost would be horrific. In towns having only 1 gun shop, it would be left up to the benevolence of the gun shop owner. The gun shop owner would be free to charge more for a PPT than a new gun, in effect, making it essentially impossible to sell a used gun legally, and still make a profit.

Well stated. By making it a legal requirement for all transfers to be done through a dealer, the legislators also had to require dealers to perform the service, and at a cost affordable by the population, but still fair to the dealer. The number they came up with was $10 nearly 20years ago. Was it fair then? Is it fair now? That is basically the OP's question. As others have pointed out, capitalism works, and I contend market forces indicate $10 is too low since no dealers are charging less, and many try to charge more or restrict the availability of PPT through limited hours, etc.

Bottomline question, if $10 profit on a PPT is such a great deal for CA dealers, why would everyone of them prefer not to do them if given a choice? Are they all too stupid to be in business?

[CSACANNONEER]

Don't get it with the $22/hr labor cost. That would only work if you only had to pay an employee when he/she is doing a PPT. Maybe you can have pre-scheduled PPT appointments and have the employee come in and pay him/her only if a PPT is scheduled.

I've NEVER been in any gunshop that always had all it's sales staff busy with sales. So, since they are getting paid and just standing around, wouldn't that make their labor to do a PPT cost the shop $0?

[halifax]

...Buyer and seller walk out the door - what happens next in the shop, associated with that PPT?

Complete the 4473 Sections B, C, and D as necessary; enter firearm into the A/D book; secure firearm in the safe; stow paperwork. (maybe a review by someone else)

10+ days later: verify buyer's ID (if GTG); get firearm from safe; get paperwork; have buyer sign & date 4473 Section C; check and complete Sections B and D; sign and date Section D; enter date & time on DROS; complete A/D disposition information; review everything and file paperwork.

More or less

[OCArmory]

You guys have all missed the cost of the product. I carry insurance based on a replacement value of inventory. This includes the amount above my inventory that I think might be in the store due to PPT. As such I have a higher insurance premium. Also if a customer comes to me and says that his product was damaged while I held it for 10 days, That would be another cost. For the record we have never damaged a customers gun but I have been accused of it only to find out later from the seller it was like that when they sold it and the buyer just didn't notice it. Now if I had paid to fix the problem I would have been out much more than $10.
Mike

[jtmkinsd]

So, if we use a 'floor' of $22/hr labor costs, a PPT session with buyer and seller might run $3.67/10 min, $5.50/15 min, $7.33/20 min or $11/30 min.

Some in this thread have suggested that the overt paperwork phase is less than the other things needed.

Buyer and seller walk out the door - what happens next in the shop, associated with that PPT?

Well, some things are done as the customer fills out their 4473. Basically, the transaction goes as follows. Lets say for a handgun.

1. Buyer seller shows up and states they want to do a PPT. I ask for the firearm, ID's from both, and the buyers HSC card and secondary proof of residency. I ask both parties if the information on their ID's is current. If it isn't I ask for the supporting documentation from a government agency to verify residency. If buyers is military ID I ask for their home state ID and orders to a duty station in CA...this usually results in a blank stare, so I have to explain ID and residency requirements

2. I give the buyer a form 4473. Give him/her a quick run-down on the rules of filling one out (yes, there are rules...it's a government document after all). Buyer then starts filling out the form.

3. I make copies of all relevant ID/documentation. Take said copy back to counter where I then input the firearm into the bound book.

4. Enter DROS information for both parties and the firearm. I say a little prayer before swiping each ID, because if it doesn't read the ID, I have to enter the information manually. And yes, at times neither ID swipes and I don't like to recall those moments.

5. At this point, buyer should be done with 4473. Assuming no mistakes for which I have to tear up his initial form and give him a second one to fill out, I then have the buyer answer the 4 questions required on the DROS. After answering, I click "preview" and have the buyer and seller verify the information is correct before I "submit".

6. Submit the DROS and print 3 copies.

7. Transpose DROS number to 4473 and to the bound book, stamp my name and number on all 3 copies of DROS. I sign all 3 copies. Buyer signs all three copies. Seller signs all 3 copies. Buyer's right thumb print on the back of 1 copy which I keep. Buyer and seller each get a copy.

8. At this point the seller is done and I cut him/her loose. Buyer goes through the Safe Handling demonstration. I fill out form, sign two places with instructor number, buyer signs and goes with paperwork.

9. I then have to buld a profile in quickbooks for the buyer, or if they are a repeat customer, I build an invoice. PPT+DROS (+ a lock if they need one). Buyer pays, gets a receipt, and I tell him when he can come back to get the firearm. Firearm goes in one of the safes.



That's it basically. Now in between every word of the above, you have to allow for "well I don't have anything except my license?" or "is it ok if I answered this wrong and I just scratch it out and put the right answer?" or the multitude of questions about the 4473 when I'm trying to do something else like "what does it mean here when it asks am I the transferee/buyer"

Every transaction is different in a lot of ways...too many variables to list here. I will say on average the transaction takes 15-20 minutes...some more some less, but that's about middle of the road.

[dachan]

I've NEVER been in any gunshop that always had all it's sales staff busy with sales. So, since they are getting paid and just standing around, wouldn't that make their labor to do a PPT cost the shop $0?

Because if you recall the entire thread you'll see that the whole $22/hr came from the statements below to hire somebody to do PPT's for $15/hr.

Depends on the activity, no reason why you should lose a sale while conducting a PPT though. If this is an ongoing issue you hire someone for $15 an hour to handle PPTs.

Ok...now we're getting somewhere at least. Ok...hire someone...what added expenses are there in this option. Workers comp insurance, payroll, training. Would it be fair to say if I hire someone at $15/hr the actual cost to me is probably in the neighborhood of $22-$25 an hour?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea...justifying the expense gets tricky though.

How much does it really cost to do the transaction, on average? I'd guess the cost is essentially all labor, and that would vary some based on location and experience of the employee.

The 1991-ish $10 set in PC is a bit over $15 now, according to an inflation calculator I found. (The 1934 $200 transfer tax for NFA weapons is now the equivalent of $3171.)

OP, might I suggest you change this thread to a poll and ask only FFL dealers to respond, how much does it really cost to do a PPT, and/or (if you want more direct response) what would be a fair charge for a PPT, $0, $10, $20, $30, $40, $50 or over.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Well stated. By making it a legal requirement for all transfers to be done through a dealer, the legislators also had to require dealers to perform the service, and at a cost affordable by the population, but still fair to the dealer. The number they came up with was $10 nearly 20years ago. Was it fair then? Is it fair now? That is basically the OP's question. As others have pointed out, capitalism works, and I contend market forces indicate $10 is too low since no dealers are charging less, and many try to charge more or restrict the availability of PPT through limited hours, etc.

Bottomline question, if $10 profit on a PPT is such a great deal for CA dealers, why would everyone of them prefer not to do them if given a choice? Are they all too stupid to be in business?

In my original post, I made the statement that the fair price for a PPT was 0.00. I do not believe it should cost anything above the DROS fee for a background check, and I think the DROS fee should be the actual cost to the government to run the check, which is a lot lower than $25.00.

The fee to transfer a constitutionally-protected right should be held to the same cost standards as permitting. When the government requires a permit for other constitutional rights, they are greatly limited. For example, a permit to demonstrate is around $20. This is because the permit must be automatic, and must be affordable for all people. If the government is going to require that constitutionally protected rights be administered by gun dealers, then the gun dealer must do it for the same price. It may be unfair, it may be incorrect, but a gun dealer signs up for it when he becomes an FFL. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to own a store.

There are other solutions; have PPTs done by a government agency. This way the government absorbed the cost of protecting the constitution. One thing is for sure: the constitution is paramount: my constitutional right to sell my firearm supersedes a gun store's right to charge whatever he wants. Though it is a close second, the rights of the people are paramount.

[jtmkinsd]

There are other solutions; have PPTs done by a government agency.

Have you been to the DMV lately? You really wanna do that?

[E Pluribus Unum]

Have you been to the DMV lately? You really wanna do that?

DMV does not control a constitutional right. Though I do not agree, that is what the courts have ruled.

Have you ever applied for a permit to assemble or protest? We have the freedom of assembly and the freedom of speech, but you can't just grab a soapbox and head down to the local park. You must get a permit first to give the government notice that they may need to keep the peace or in some other way protect the public interest. That permit must be easy to get, automatic, and cheap. It usually consists of going to the local authority and simply applying for a permit, paying a small fee, and obtaining the permit within a reasonable time. If any of this is not followed, it opens the door for a lawsuit.

With the DMV, they are free to do what they choose because the courts have ruled that driving is a privilege and so not constitutionally protected.

[Cokebottle]

i think it should just cost the dros and have it a term and condition of a buisness licence in ca

Do that and we'll have even more shops that come up with excuses why they can't do a PPT at the particular time you happen to be in the store.

They still have to hold the gun for 10 days, and they are responsible for it during this time. If something happens to it, it's going to come out of their insurance (if loss by theft/fire), or out of their bottom line if loss by non-covered event or employee "error".

I could live with it being indexed by inflation.... $15, $40 OTD is reasonable.

[jtmkinsd]

DMV does not control a constitutional right. Though I do not agree, that is what the courts have ruled.

Have you ever applied for a permit to assemble or protest? We have the freedom of assembly and the freedom of speech, but you can't just grab a soapbox and head down to the local park. You must get a permit first to give the government notice that they may need to keep the peace or in some other way protect the public interest. That permit must be easy to get, automatic, and cheap. It usually consists of going to the local authority and simply applying for a permit, paying a small fee, and obtaining the permit within a reasonable time. If any of this is not followed, it opens the door for a lawsuit.

With the DMV, they are free to do what they choose because the courts have ruled that driving is a privilege and so not constitutionally protected.

My point was more geared toward how pathetically government agencies are at processing transactions. How many people apply for protesting permits? How many PPTs are done in a given area of the state in a day? If government took on the responsibility of processing these transactions it would be a nightmare...and you know they'd have that stupid voice calling numbers over the intercom...god my skin crawls even thinking about it.

I'm sure if you ask any DMV official, they'll tell you they take care of everyone in a "reasonable" amount of time.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I could live with it being indexed by inflation.... $15, $40 OTD is reasonable.

That is asinine. I don't care if you PROVE to me that it costs a gun store $200 in revenue to do a PPT, $40 over DROS is insane. There are used guns that sell for less than $100.00 and you want to charge $65 to transfer it? It only costs $80 to do a background check on a CCW app.

If you tell me that requiring a private shop to do it for a set low price is wrong, I would agree, it is wrong. It is also wrong to require the government approve PPTs. Advocate for the removal of the requirement for shops to perform PPTs and I'll back you. Say instead that the fee should INCREASE and it's hogwash. No other constitutional right costs more than $30-$40 to exercise and the second amendment deserves the same treatment.

Rather than authorizing the increase of fees, make it mandatory for local law enforcement to run the background. They are already setup to store personal firearms for extended periods of time. Sure it will increase cost for local agencies, but it is better than making local shops do it.