What would be a 'fair' PPT charge?

[Librarian]

How much does it really cost to do the transaction, on average? I'd guess the cost is essentially all labor, and that would vary some based on location and experience of the employee.

The 1991-ish $10 set in PC is a bit over $15 now, according to an inflation calculator I found. (The 1934 $200 transfer tax for NFA weapons is now the equivalent of $3171.)

[halifax]

If it went up $5, I could live with it.

[bohoki]

i think it should just cost the dros and have it a term and condition of a buisness licence in ca

all the adding of fees have done is cause the ffls to ad confusion and charge more

[Santa Cruz Armory]

$25. Cost of the DROS

[Matt C]

Let's see, say I own a retail business. The state passes a law, which requires people who I know for a fact are potential customers to come to my store, twice, and not only does it cost me nothing but 10-15 minutes of my time, but I can actually charge the customer a fee? And I'm gonna complain? Do you know what other retail outlets with the same margins pay to acquire new customers or get visits? And you are complaining because it takes some time? And you get paid!?!?!

Problem is most gun store owners (not all) don't have much formal business training, and many don't have much business skill at all. Which is fine, they are in it because they love guns, not because they want to make a fortune (at least I hope they don't think that going to happen in that business). I really appreciate this because without it guns and stuff would either cost much more or be very difficult to get.

I have yet to see a SINGLE gun store give this option: instead of paying $10 to me for the transfer, make a minimum $50 purchase at the store and just pay the state DROS fee. Or maybe just give out free transfer vouchers to people who spend $100 or more, because chances are if they buy stuff from you, and you get them in the store two more times, they will buy more stuff. Unless you are a grumpy arrogant jerk with no sales skills (like many I see behind the counter).

[dachan]

i think it should just cost the dros and have it a term and condition of a buisness licence in ca

Do that and see how many dealers you have left in the state.

Think about what you're saying. Let's say you own a car dealership and CA passed a law saying that all car sales must go through a dealership, but dealerships must handle the transaction upon demand and process all the paperwork for free. In addition, they must store the car in their lot for 10days during the "registration period" for free. Is that reasonable?

Let's see, say I own a retail business. The state passes a law, which requires people who I know for a fact are potential customers to come to my store, twice, and not only does it cost me nothing but 10-15 minutes of my time, but I can actually charge the customer a fee? And I'm gonna complain? Do you know what other retail outlets with the same margins pay to acquire new customers or get visits? And you are complaining because it takes some time? And you get paid!?!?!

Potential customers, possibly, but someone who just completed a significant purchase. And with the internet and big box stores, a diminishing possibility for sales of accessories. All said, the possibility of an additional sale is not enough to cover the cost of the service.

I have yet to see a SINGLE gun store give this option: instead of paying $10 to me for the transfer, make a minimum $50 purchase at the store and just pay the state DROS fee.

Maybe because they can't average the 20% markup needed to make this even come close to breaking even.

[Matt C]

Do that and see how many dealers you have left in the state.

Think about what you're saying. Let's say you own a car dealership and CA passed a law saying that all car sales must go through a dealership, but dealerships must handle the transaction upon demand and process all the paperwork for free. In addition, they must store the car in their lot for 10days during the "registration period" for free. Is that reasonable?

It is if the dealership gets most of it's profits from accessories and not cars anyway.

[jtmkinsd]

Let's see, say I own a retail business. The state passes a law, which requires people who I know for a fact are potential customers to come to my store, twice, and not only does it cost me nothing but 10-15 minutes of my time, but I can actually charge the customer a fee? And I'm gonna complain? Do you know what other retail outlets with the same margins pay to acquire new customers or get visits? And you are complaining because it takes some time? And you get paid!?!?!

It doesn't take a master's in business to recognize what costs are involved in operating a business. You say it costs "nothing but 10-15 minutes" of my time. WRONG...typical naive notions about business owners. The costs associated with even being there to offer you "10-15" minutes of my time are typically ignored. Also, the ten days (or more) your merchandise takes up in my shop, and the twenty years of storage for your paperwork. IF you owned a business, you could probably understand when government mandates a ceiling on a fee which doesn't even cover the operating expenses, those expenses would have to be made up elsewhere...in the dealer transfers in this case.

Problem is most gun store owners (not all) don't have much formal business training, and many don't have much business skill at all. Which is fine, they are in it because they love guns, not because they want to make a fortune (at least I hope they don't think that going to happen in that business). I really appreciate this because without it guns and stuff would either cost much more or be very difficult to get.).

Then by all means...please educate all of us...why not write a book on operating a business...since everyone's got it wrong and you have the solution.

I have yet to see a SINGLE gun store give this option: instead of paying $10 to me for the transfer, make a minimum $50 purchase at the store and just pay the state DROS fee. Or maybe just give out free transfer vouchers to people who spend $100 or more, because chances are if they buy stuff from you, and you get them in the store two more times, they will buy more stuff. Unless you are a grumpy arrogant jerk with no sales skills (like many I see behind the counter).

Ummm...most if not all retailers will waive the transfer fee if you purchase from their stock...so I guess you are right...a SINGLE store doesn't do that...MOST do.

As for "grumpy arrogant jerks" behind the counter...you think we got that way by dealing with knowledgeable and friendly customers?

Finally, in answer to Librarian's question, it really depends on the costs of doing business in the particular area of the state we're in...some have higher and lower operating costs...I think if I put a pencil to it, I'd need about $20-$25 on every PPT just to break even.

[Matt C]

Ok, I'll address each point here. But first off, I'm not the enemy, and I mean no offense. Also, I do manage part of a 30 employee business and I own or am equal partner in another, I have also done some management consulting.

You say it costs "nothing but 10-15 minutes" of my time. WRONG...typical naive notions about business owners. The costs associated with even being there to offer you "10-15" minutes of my time are typically ignored.

In other words, your overhead. I'm not ignoring that, but it's a sunk cost and it's fixed. You have to pay those expenses anyway in order to operate your business, that would be true if the state forced people to come to your shop or not. The 10-15 minutes does not increase your overhead. If I'm misunderstanding what you mean by costs please correct me.

Also, the ten days (or more) your merchandise takes up in my shop

Are you running out of room in there? If not this is the same thing, a fixed sunk cost. In other words, it cost you nothing to store the guns from PPTs.

the twenty years of storage for your paperwork.

Well you already have to store paperwork for your sales from stock, so what is the marginal cost of storing a few more pieces of paper?

you could probably understand when government mandates a ceiling on a fee which doesn't even cover the operating expenses, those expenses would have to be made up elsewhere.

Pretty much already covered this, government is not increasing your overhead.

Then by all means...please educate all of us...why not write a book on operating a business...since everyone's got it wrong and you have the solution.

There are plenty of perfectly sufficient books on business management. I'm not proposing anything novel here, just questioning whether most gun store owners have read and understand what is in those books, since they don't seem to put it into practice. I apologize if I come off as arrogant, it's a personality flaw I have.

Ummm...most if not all retailers will waive the transfer fee if you purchase from their stock...so I guess you are right...a SINGLE store doesn't do that...MOST do.

I am aware of that, I'm not talking about waving the fee for a gun purchase from stock, I'm talking about waving the fee for a PPT if there is a minimum purchase from accessory inventory. I actually did a abstract business plan for a gun shop, it quickly became apparent to me that there was VERY low margins on guns, certainly not enough to justify the opening a shop in the LA area (maybe 5-10% TOPS). You are competing with other dealers, online, and used guns. Of course this does not apply if you are adding value yourself (manufacturing, customizing etc).

Accessories on the other hand have a margin of 20% or higher, much higher if you can import stuff yourself and have relationships with manufacturers in Asia. Basically I decided that guns would just get people in the shop for to salespeople could push overpriced accessories on them. The other option is to have an owner working in and running the whole shop with long hours making a mediocre salary. I didn't like either idea, so basically I labeled the idea a dud. If you have the passion to do this though, I salute you (no BS), without you buying guns and gun stuff would be very difficult or expensive.

As for "grumpy arrogant jerks" behind the counter...you think we got that way by dealing with knowledgeable and friendly customers?

Heh, welcome to sales. Everyone deals with bad customers, I don't care if you work at Disneyland, a Ferrari dealership, or the soup kitchen. That's business.

[jtmkinsd]

So...buy everything from Asia, push it on customers who may or may not want/need it, offer them a bait and switch on the transfer waiver by requiring accessory purchases (which would go over real well by the way) and if costs go up...but a government mandated fee does not...oh well?

Great business plan (sarcasm intended)

[E Pluribus Unum]

How much does it really cost to do the transaction, on average? I'd guess the cost is essentially all labor, and that would vary some based on location and experience of the employee.

The 1991-ish $10 set in PC is a bit over $15 now, according to an inflation calculator I found. (The 1934 $200 transfer tax for NFA weapons is now the equivalent of $3171.)

$0.00

I should not be required to give the government, or a private entity, money in order to transfer property that is constitutionally protected.

The government requires gun sales to go through a licensed gun dealer. I cannot buy or sell a gun newer than 50 years old, without going to a licensed dealer. What if that were true with automobiles??? Car dealerships would LOVE that. The fact that the government requires private citizens to conduct firearms business at their retail establishments, this means that most people buy their guns from a retailer. They buy ammo, and other accessories, from them as well. PPTs are a part of the package for gun stores. Guns are VERY lucrative; more-so than most people know. For the right of entering this profitable business, store owners are stuck doing PPTs. Period.



P.S.

To those that say "then see how many gun stores you have". That is the beauty of capitalism. You might have EVERY shop close up shop rather than deal with it. That's OK. Some business owner will see the demand... see the vacuum... and open a shop with high prices. Then someone else will see the high prices and think "I can beat that" and open another store with slightly lower pricing... and then the competition for customers begins all over again.

[Matt C]

So...buy everything from Asia, push it on customers who may or may not want/need it, offer them a bait and switch on the transfer waiver by requiring accessory purchases (which would go over real well by the way)

Nope, I said OPTION. Personally instead of paying $10 for nothing I'd much rather buy $50 of goods from you at retail price. It supports you, and I probably would have bought that stuff anyway.

if costs go up...but a government mandated fee does not...oh well?

If your fixed costs go up I don't see what a government fee has to do with anything, unless you are looking for a bailout or something. I'm really not sure you are grasping this concept.

Great business plan (sarcasm intended)

Does "dud" sound like a positive label to you?

To those that say "then see how many gun stores you have". That is the beauty of capitalism. You might have EVERY shop close up shop rather than deal with it. That's OK. Some business owner will see the demand... see the vacuum... and open a shop with high prices. Then someone else will see the high prices and think "I can beat that" and open another store with slightly lower pricing... and then the competition for customers begins all over again.

As much as I agree with you in theory, I would like to support the gunshop owners we have. I just can't stand it when they complain about PPT regulations as they stand, or worse, charge illegally high fees.

[E Pluribus Unum]

As much as I agree with you in theory, I would like to support the gunshop owners we have. I just can't stand it when they complain about PPT regulations as they stand, or worse, charge illegally high fees.

I would love to deal with them as well... but if they are going to either B and moan about the fee, or flat out disregard the law, then I want nothing to do with them. There are PLENTY of shops happy to do it for the ability to have a gun shop that would love my business.

I am a self-employed computer tech. If computer parts suppliers were required to only sell to licensed businesses, local retail business would skyrocket. If you took away the ability of people to order it from newegg for dirt cheap and build it themselves, shops could charge a whole lot more. If the requirement of such legislation were that shops had to handle private party transfer of used computers, shops would JUMP on it. It would be SO much more lucrative to absorb the cost of dealing with the used stuff, if it meant that people had to come in your store and buy new parts from you instead of being able to have it mail order to the house.

How much business would local gun shops get if they could charge whatever they wanted for PPT, but buyers could order a new gun directly from the manufacturer for 30-40% cheaper than what was on store shelves?

The internet gun business would explode, and gun prices would immediately plummet; many local shops would go out of business.

[jtmkinsd]

What is the difficulty in the concept of this? $10 per transaction is not enough to cover expenses...government says it's a crime to charge more than that. End result, if all I did was offer PPT's I would be out of business in very short order.

It's fine if you want to purchase extra's when you are in the shop...I will tell you MOST do not...they become irrate, even belligerent at the costs they already have to pay and think we're lying to them on a constant basis...I would challenge you to understand the customer a little more to get a better grip on the industry. Calguns is not necessarily the best cross section of the "average" firearm consumer.

[Deucer]

I was charged $50 on my last transfer off an internet purchase. Pretty standard in this area. If there was a store around that would waive that fee if I bought $75 worth of ammo or accessories at retail price from them, I'd gladly buy into that deal, and I'd also run every gun I purchased through that store.

I don't own a business, but it seems like such an arrangement would benefit all parties.

Anyone want to tell me why that would be a bad deal for either side?