Once Saved Always Saved ....?

[Lineman101]

I'm not sure, but I think you may have made a mis-statement somewhere in the above quote (I suspect what you meant to write was slightly different from how the reader will understand what you actually wrote, even though you know what you actually meant - if you know what I mean). I'd like to clarify this just in case someone who isn't familiar with biblical doctrines reads this thread - simply so that someone unfamiliar with the Bible doesn't become confused.

Disclaimer: We as creatures CANNOT comprehend our Creator (not even remotely close!); as such, the doctrine of the trinity cannot be fully comprehended by any man and has to accepted by faith (just like all the gospel). By His grace, He has revealed Himself to us through His Son and through His word, and by His grace He gives us the faith to believe Him, even on topics we do not comprehend. It's like Abraham - he chose to believe God, even when he didn't understand.

That said... the doctrine of the trinity, or tri-unity, of God is a fundamental Christian belief - however, it is not exactly what you described (as stated up-front, I suspect you made a mis-statement, without realizing it).

Classic trinitarian doctrine holds that there is only one true God, but that He has revealed Himself to mankind in three "persons" - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each "person" is fully God, yet each "person" is distinct, and each "person" exists at all times. The Father is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son; yet, each is God, and there is only one God. Your quote above reaches toward what is often-referred to as "oneness", which is distinct from classic, traditional, commonly-understood trinitarian doctrine.

The classic example of each "person" of the "Godhead" being distinct from one another is found in John 3:21-22, namely, "When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.' "

In the above-referenced passage we see the Son present (Jesus being baptized), we see the Holy Spirit present ("descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him"), and we see the Father present ("a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased"), all at the same time. Yet, all three are distinct.

Hi-
Holding to Jesus being the Father and the Holy Spirit is the teaching of Oneness Pentecostalism and is outside of orthodox Christianity. Not a Cook nailed it. Thanks, there are many that need to understand the nature of God. This teaching is a necessity in the Christian teaching and is certainly an essential for saving grace.
God bless,
Lineman101

[Barang]

You seem to fall short of traditional Christian teaching. Can I ask what church you attend? Do they have a website I can see?

I ask because you said you use the NWT bible, which is a JW version. You've said you studied with the JW and Mormons. It seems that both groups have influenced your thinking. You also say you celebrate the Sabbath, which is a vernacular most traditional Christians would not use. Your expectation of man turning away from sin is unrealistic.

.

Yes, I studied with JW & Moromons looooooong time ago and You seem stuck to the NWT. ANything that I've said above is not true? Anything that I posted above not found in the Holy Book?
Regaring Sabbath, do you disagree with God? Do you think He made a mistake of puting it in the Ten Commandments?
As regard to "Your expectation of man turning away from sin is unrealistic." Then Jesus just made a "Useless" command when He told the adulteress to "GO and sin no more" John 8: 11. Isn't that the reason why Jesus came to pay for our sins and yet it seems like you don't want to turn away from sin.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=934964 These are some of the Pastors that I watch and listen to weekly.

[Lineman101]

Hebrews 1:6 from the 1984 edition of the NWT:


But is seems that the NWT wanted to purposely hide the original meaning of Hebrews 1:6. As you can see, the 1950 edition of the NWT teaches something entirely different. What could be the reason for this change? Whom was it that gave the authority for the change? Is the change intentional to hide the identity of the One spoken about?
This is the front inside cover of the 1950 edition of the NWT:

This is the picture of Hebrews 1:6 in the 1950 NWT. It shows the word "worship." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what the word "worship" means.


I thought it might be helpful to show one of the reasons as to why there is no respect for the NWT used to argue any Christian doctrine. It is purposely is being used to hide the truth of the Gospel.

God bless,
Lineman101

[Barang]

Like I've said in another thread, I cross reference with my wife's NKJV so I'm not missing or misreading the Bible. I'm being checked by NKJV. Let's debate the contents of my post and not dissecting the words as if that would invalidate the point.

[Armed-Citizen]

As christ states Mathew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
You can see if i person is saved by their fruits, in other words, their conduct, their reaction towards sin, (do they embrace it, or do they want nothing to do with it when its present?) do they desire godliness?

Seeing this, we come to the conclusion that no ones perfect so even if one is saved, you will fall due to the Flesh we live, so the point is not once you have repented, will you sin again, but once you have repented and sin, what do you do then? do you repent or see the sin as daily bread?...Knowing that your truly saved is seen by the continual repentance.

Pm me if you have any questions.

[colossians323]

Like I've said in another thread, I cross reference with my wife's NKJV so I'm not missing or misreading the Bible. I'm being checked by NKJV. Let's debate the contents of my post and not dissecting the words as if that would invalidate the point.

The problem with that is you have been posting verses of the JW bible that have added to the text. You really need to invest in a better bible, your cross referencing is falling short. I mentioned it in an earlier post, just because the text does not have the same meaning with [words] added

[Barang]

The problem with that is you have been posting verses of the JW bible that have added to the text. You really need to invest in a better bible, your cross referencing is falling short. I mentioned it in an earlier post, just because the text does not have the same meaning with [words] added

Well, in the spirit of unity, how about I use NKJV,ESV, etc so as not to distract the content of the post?

[colossians323]

I'm not talking about not sinning ever again. Of course we're all continue to sin, we are not yet perfected. I don't need to pray about it, God already laid it out in His Book plenty of warnings for us christians.

lets talk about this and look at these one by one.

The verse below is talking about people who received Jesus Christ as their Savior before conversion.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This verse is obviously letting us know that we need a life changing faith. one that brings us to our knees, and lets the Holy Spirit lead our lives.

But after you get saved or converted, you need to change your mind, heart and behavior because if you don't, then verses below address that:

Matthew 7:21-23 - 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

What exactly do you believe that this verse is saying? do you believe that these were believers that were condemned to hell? No, I dare say the obviousness of these verses are that many will claim the name of Christ, some for personal, gain, some because their parents told them, but they will not really come to a saving faith. These are not people who ever had salvation, but people who falsely claimed the name of Christ. You probably see these people in Church every time you attend, but it is God who judges those whom have and have not accepted our Lord and Savior.

James 2:26 - For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Are you saying that we have to earn our way to heaven, or they will know we are Christians by our love. If you have the Spirit living in you, works come naturally. Normally works come through Gods gifts of the Holy Spirit that you are endowed with.

John 15:6 - If anyone does not abide in me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Another verse that reinforces salvation cannot be lost if it has never been obtained. why would you want to do Gods will if you did not know him? Anyone can give lip service and many do, but as you have stated the path is narrow, it does not say the path is narrow and those that follow will possibly lose their salvation of they don't stick to barangs strict legalistic guide lines. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Philippians 2:12 - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Another verse supporting that salvation is only gained not lost. God is not an indian giver, he does not give and take away, and give and take away. This is a very legalistic approach to your salvation. There is a reason that Jesus met with the disciples on Sunday. It was to show them that the day of rest isnt a specified day but work six and rest one, not work all but on Saturday, you must recognize Saturday as the Sabbath. If you want to be judged by the law, keep on trying to follow the law. if you want Grace, then Jesus is your LORD.

Mt 24: 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

What is enduring to the end? do you think that if you do all the right things, that is what gives you your salvation, or do you think salvation comes through Christ alone?

Joh 5: 28-29 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement.

Did you know the parable of the the workers and the denari? what do you suppose it meant when it said the first shall be last and the last shall be first? What do you suppose it means when one has a death bed conversion. Would you condemn them to hell because of your belief? If you do not have Jesus living in your heart, you will not recognize the life you should be living. Once again, this is talking about those with a commitment to Christ, not those giving lip service as many do and have done.

1Ti 4: 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

Does this mean we earn our salvation and God is lying when he says confess with your lips and believe in your heart?

Heb 10: 26-27 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [ there is ] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [ there is ] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.

So the sin in your life is committed how? Unwillfully? Do you believe that if you have sin that you are not saved?

Jas 2: 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

Covered ad infinitum. Who are you studying with that makes you believe that your God is a God who gives and takes and gives and takes away your salvation?

[Barang]

After all the time and typing, my log in expired and lost my response to you. It's late and I am going to bed.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For non-believers, they are not required to perform or show good works to get saved. All they need to do is to Accept Jesus and Repent from all of their sins.

Once you're saved, your Faith must be back up by Good Works because God says so, not me!

Colossians 1: 10 So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

James 2:26 - For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Jas 2: 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

That's what the Bible says, that's what I believe. And regarding Sabbath, yes I follow that because it's in the Ten Commandments. God chose the 7th day as Sabbath day and not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or any other day of the week. Who am I to argue and tell God that I can pick whatever day is Sabbath day?
No! When I accepted Jesus as my Savior, He is also my Lord [complete surrender to Him].
I celebrate Sabbath as Jesus did in New Testament Not the way the Old Testament people did.

[QUOTE] Covered ad infinitum. Who are you studying with that makes you believe that your God is a God who gives and takes and gives and takes away your salvation? [QUOTE]

My God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent Yahweh, Jehovah, Father God, El Shaddai, Elohim of the Bible.
I already listed the Pastors I watch every weekend in one of my threads here.

[colossians323]

After all the time and typing, my log in expired and lost my response to you. It's late and I am going to bed.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For non-believers, they are not required to perform or show good works to get saved. All they need to do is to Accept Jesus and Repent from all of their sins.

Once you're saved, your Faith must be back up by Good Works because God says so, not me!

Your works are the outward evidence of your faith

Colossians 1: 10 So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

James 2:26 - For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Jas 2: 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

Nothing you are quoting here says you can lose your salvation. What point are you trying to make?

That's what the Bible says, that's what I believe. And regarding Sabbath, yes I follow that because it's in the Ten Commandments. God chose the 7th day as Sabbath day and not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or any other day of the week. Who am I to argue and tell God that I can pick whatever day is Sabbath day?
No! When I accepted Jesus as my Savior, He is also my Lord [complete surrender to Him].
I celebrate Sabbath as Jesus did in New Testament Not the way the Old Testament people did.

Covered ad infinitum. Who are you studying with that makes you believe that your God is a God who gives and takes and gives and takes away your salvation?

My God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent Yahweh, Jehovah, Father God, El Shaddai, Elohim of the Bible.
I already listed the Pastors I watch every weekend in one of my threads here.

Jesus advocated working on the Sabbath contrary to the law as the jews were following. Didn't the pharisees and saducees try and catch him on that?

Matthew 12:1-16

Sabbath Questions

1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” 3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Lord of the Sabbath

8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

15 But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him, and He healed them all, 16 and warned them not to tell who He was.

As far as following the law, the book of James talks about that as well

James 2:10
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

[sixoclockhold]

Faith based, once salvation is acquired, God will take you through the steps to the Kingdom. He won't break his promise. He knows the enemy and that enemy is defeated.

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

1 Peter 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice , though now for a season, if need be , ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth , though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So chill out, God is in the driver's seat, faith gets you a cool ride.

[gdr_11]

I find it interesting that this is always a hot issue for some folks to debate since it tends to run along doctrinal lines and many times reflects the teaching under which many young Christians sat. In my case, I never subscribed to any particular denomination or teacher, and I have the perspective that doctrinal differences are man made, not God made. When the final bell tolls, we will find out who was right but it will not make one lick of difference if you are a true believer. My wife, on the other hand, was discipled in a pentecostal church and she has many hard and fast beliefs along these lines.

I always tell folks to read the Scriptures, meditate on what they say, believe 100% of what you read, and pray for the guidance and understanding. Listening to too many other people will only bring confusion unless you are blessed to have a good mentor or teacher.

[colossians323]

I find it interesting that this is always a hot issue for some folks to debate since it tends to run along doctrinal lines and many times reflects the teaching under which many young Christians sat. In my case, I never subscribed to any particular denomination or teacher, and I have the perspective that doctrinal differences are man made, not God made. When the final bell tolls, we will find out who was right but it will not make one lick of difference if you are a true believer. My wife, on the other hand, was discipled in a pentecostal church and she has many hard and fast beliefs along these lines.

I always tell folks to read the Scriptures, meditate on what they say, believe 100% of what you read, and pray for the guidance and understanding. Listening to too many other people will only bring confusion unless you are blessed to have a good mentor or teacher.

bible is pretty clear when using hermeneutics. Doctrinal issues are for those that subscribe to the point that they have to be a "catholic", "baptist" "epsicopilian" etc etc, Paul talked about the divide of prescribing to different denominations and the dangers, but history continues to repeat itself

[Barang]

Nothing you are quoting here says you can lose your salvation. What point are you trying to make?



John 15: 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Philippinas 3: 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

1 Timothy 4: 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2 Peter 2: 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Jesus advocated working on the Sabbath contrary to the law as the jews were following. Didn't the pharisees and saducees try and catch him on that?


I practice how Jesus observed the Sabbath not the way the Old Testament people or the pharisees do. I follow the Lord not man!


As far as following the law, the book of James talks about that as well

Of course, how can I disagree what the Bible says.

[Doheny]

After all the time and typing, my log in expired and lost my response to you. It's late and I am going to bed.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For non-believers, they are not required to perform or show good works to get saved. All they need to do is to Accept Jesus and Repent from all of their sins.

Once you're saved, your Faith must be back up by Good Works because God says so, not me!

Colossians 1: 10 So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

James 2:26 - For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Jas 2: 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

That's what the Bible says, that's what I believe. And regarding Sabbath, yes I follow that because it's in the Ten Commandments. God chose the 7th day as Sabbath day and not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or any other day of the week. Who am I to argue and tell God that I can pick whatever day is Sabbath day?
No! When I accepted Jesus as my Savior, He is also my Lord [complete surrender to Him].
I celebrate Sabbath as Jesus did in New Testament Not the way the Old Testament people did.

Covered ad infinitum. Who are you studying with that makes you believe that your God is a God who gives and takes and gives and takes away your salvation?

My God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent Yahweh, Jehovah, Father God, El Shaddai, Elohim of the Bible.
I already listed the Pastors I watch every weekend in one of my threads here.[/QUOTE]

-----

You continue to bark up the wrong tree. You freely admit you studied under Mormons and JW's which is fine, but it's influenced your view of things. You use a JW version of the bible, which isn't accepted by others not of the JW faith, as Christians generally accept other biblical translations (KJV, NLT, NIV, etc.)

Your views simply aren't mainstream. You try to say they are and give a list of TV preachers you say you watch, but on the other hand, you won't identify a church you attend or provide a link to their website. You certainly don't have to, but it would help us to know where you're coming from.

Again, you're free to worship as you wish and we'll extend grace and mercy. However, your teachings aren't what are accepted by mainstream Christians.