Sad Situation

[micro911]

Not all LEO's are familiar with weapons laws and firearms. When the "assault weapon law" was first initiated in early 90's, I had to try very hard to convince my fellow LEO's that Ruger Mini-14 was not an assault weapon.

As a matter of fact, as a firearms expert, I constantly educate my fellow LEO's on firearms and laws.

[kermit315]

I posted this in the other thread (Do You Trust Police). As expected, it was ignored. Posted here again.

Scene of the Crime (BIG Post)
Apologies in advance to Tribune reporters Peter Nickeas and Jason Wambsgans, but we are going to pretty much link and steal your entire article from the triple shooting in 011 Saturday night. Nickeas has gotten quite a few compliments on this site and he writes as close to a coppers point-of-view as we've seen any reporter in this town do in years. That's not just us talking - he's actually been called a "gentleman" at crime scenes, which is saying something.

"I know who did the shooting," the woman said with a sneer. "Do you?" The sergeant stood across yellow tape, and a delayed look of bewilderment briefly overtook his face before he asked, "Well, are you going to tell me?" The woman said nothing. She kept walking.

Right there, that tells you just about everything you need to know at a west side or south side crime scene. They tell you they know more than you, they revel in their knowledge of what happened, and then they walk away. We deal with this constantly.

Moments before the woman taunted the officer, neighborhood resident Lou Norris and the sergeant – one who's been doing the job long enough for the dark chevrons on his shoulder to fade into a powder blue – talked about life for a few minutes. They stood next to a green light pole and traded theories about how this came to be: Three people being shot here, including a 73-year-old grandmother.

Chaos followed the shooting, with people testing the boundaries of the crime scene on different sides at the same time. The sight of a scuffle or an officer running sent a dozen more off in the same direction as police tried to lock the scene down. The ambulances lined up on Pulaski, two facing north and one south, and police had to yell at people lingering in the street to move so ambulances could leave.

People yelled threats at the police. They shouted slurs and curse words and at various points in the night, six people were cuffed until things calmed down. Some invoked the shooting death of a teen in Missouri and walked away with their hands in the air while taunting police. The scene would stay testy for about two hours.

Norris, in a clean white T-shirt, dark jeans, black construction boots and a flat-brimmed White Sox hat, shook his head as he and the sergeant solved life's problems after most of the hundreds of people had dispersed. The two agreed: Kids need more attention. They need more discipline. They need love. The constant exposure and access to violence is messing with their development. The willingness to shoot instead of fight is not how it always was.

A copper, the sergeant in this case, latches onto one of the calmer citizens there, maybe someone he knows from around the hood, one of the ones not making noise, whooping and hollering. Get a patter going, feel it out, see who's been shooting lately, who's on the outs, who's moving in or fresh from jail. Tape goes up, *******s try to breach the scene, pushing, shoving, as if they could solve it all - and they could, if they'd speak up...but they won't. And out comes the Ferguson bull**** hands in the air....as if the police came by and lit grandma up. We'll be seeing that one for years, even after they clear the officer.

What brought Norris and the sergeant together was a burst of gunfire that left behind groups of shell casings at the corner of Pulaski Road and Arthington Street at the north end of the Lawndale neighborhood. Police said at least two people opened fire during a party being thrown by the food and liquor store here, an annual gesture meant to show the community the store's appreciation. Kids were out but none hit.

The 73-year-old who was shot was already ill, according to Shay Griggs, the woman who taunted the sergeant. She's the woman's granddaughter.

Stop right there and think about that. The woman from the first paragraph, the one taunting the sergeant with what she knew? That was her 73-year-old grandma that got shot. And she ain't gonna share **** with the police. She's going to whisper it to someone else with a gun and they're probably going to go and shoot the shooter. That right there is what we see, feel, experience every single day, yet we can't recall even one instance of something like this appearing in the media. Sure, they might do a fluff piece about a lack of info/cooperation, but a story where the reporter (Nickeas?) actually witnesses the hoodrat telling the sergeant how much he doesn't know?And then she makes more appearances once she finds a reporter:

"She said, 'Something's wrong with my back.' And the kids started crying," Griggs said.

Griggs, who had taunted police at other times throughout the night, said she doesn't know who was shooting. The tussling at the scene reflected a deep divide between officers and residents. Some on each side – and they often are diametrically opposed to each other – understand the intensity that follows shootings.

"What are you blaming us for – we didn't shoot her," one officer said to Griggs earlier in the night. Arguments often follow. Some officers won't engage with belligerent residents. Some residents seek to calm down their neighbors. But some residents try to get a rise out of the officers, some officers respond in kind and the situation worsens. Investigators said that, of the hundreds of people who were outside when the shooting happened, they had a difficult time finding witnesses. It's not an uncommon refrain.

So now she doesn't know ****. Amazing. She obviously doesn't realize that at least one of the reporters saw her tell the sergeant what she knew and the reporters have been keeping an eye on her taunting the police, then playing weeping granddaughter, then taunting some more.

This sergeant who talked with Norris often engages with residents in a way a lot of cops won't. He'll suffer a fool longer than some colleagues and chance a conversation with someone who is dancing on the edge of reasonable. It happened half a dozen times in 15 minutes on Pulaski – with a man who claimed to have a gun and ID card at home, with another man over the use of the n-word, with women who felt disrespected by officers who laughed at the scene.

Norris tries to keep kids off the streets, steering them away from the violence gripping the neighborhood, and beams when talking about the kids who've said to him, "Unc, you see what I'm doing? I'm back in school." Norris, a 53-year-old who had had been shot before, lifted his shirt, revealing a long scar up the center of his abdomen and a couple of bellybutton-like holes.

"I whooped a guy –" here Norris raised two fists like he's used them before – "and they came back on me with a .45 (caliber handgun) with a hollow tip (round)." He works construction in the neighborhood and schools the kids when he's out and about. "I try to get 'em back to school, get 'em off the corners," he said.

Before leaving he grabbed the sergeant again to say goodbye and stepped away. The two sounded like old friends by the time they finished talking.

Ghetto drama - "I got a gun at home." "My ID is in my other pants." "Did you hear what he called me?" "Why they laughin' that grandmama got shot?" We've heard it all and if you've worked any ghetto, you've heard it all and more. But Nickeas (and maybe Wambsgans) know that most of their readers haven't, and they capture it like you remember it. Then come the crazies.

The skirmishes at the scene were many and the chaos that followed the shooting, though not uncommon, was more intense and spread out over a wider area than is normal. And after police had finally set up a huge crime scene and chased people out at Taser point – red dots on white T-shirts abounded – the group stumbled upon an Hispanic man on the ground, face up, arms and legs spread as if if he about to create a snow angel.

His yellow lab sat next to him in the middle of the road, more calm than any of the humans nearby. Those hustled away from the expanded crime scene gawked and jeered at the man, who most thought was a lush who had fallen out drunk. A few minutes earlier, the man, who appeared to be in his 30s, had walked down Pulaski with his dog and a military bearing, arms and legs swinging like a metronome, and exchanged a handshake and a hug with an officer at the edge.

He wore shorts, sneakers, gray socks and a T-shirt that looked tailored over his thick frame. The man talked for a few minutes with the officer before turning around with his dog and walking away. A couple car lengths away, he yelled: "Stop! Stop the shooting!" He waved his arms. "You gotta stop all the shooting!" He jumped up and down, stomping his feet on the ground. Not 30 seconds later he was sprawled around the ground on Pulaski, unmoving, and his dog was just looking at him.

"Man down," one onlooker yelled as cops jogged over to him. A woman laughed and yelled, "He's just trying to get a ride home. Look at his dog playing along." The dog sat calmly as an officers checked for signs of life. They checked his pockets, tried addressing him by name. He didn't move. Then, with officers standing over him, he kicked back to life, going into fight mode, rolling over into police and trying to hug his dog as if to protect him from the crowd around him. He rolled on the ground, his head tucked, eyes closed.

The dog didn't move as officers moved to subdue the man. It didn't bark during the entire ordeal, remaining calm under his owner's embrace. "At ease!" one officer yelled, a command used in the military to return a serviceman from attention to a resting position. "At ease! At ease!" And like someone snapped fingers, the man stopped moving. Police identified him the man as a prior-service Marine with a service dog. A deep scar stretched from his right ear up across the top of his scalp where his hairline would start. The dog sat as paramedics tended to the man and tugged at the leash as he was wheeled into the ambulance. And when it left, south on Pulaski, an officer walked the dog north toward a car. Every couple steps, the dog tugged a bit and turned around toward the ambulance, sirens blaring, as it moved toward Mount Sinai Hospital.

And finally, just the juvies, drunks and *******s looking for a thrill:

The sergeant's patience had worn thin. Ninety minutes after the shooting, a kid tested the edge of the crime scene and the sergeant grabbed him by his shirt, pulled him into the scene and put him against his squad car in cuffs. "Alright, anybody else? Who wants to join him? You're all juveniles, you're all curfews," he said. The group jogged away and giggled. The boy arrested was fifteen.

Officers who guarded the scene as the crowd dwindled also left, leaving behind a core group of district officers tasked with making sure the half-block long perimeter wasn't breached. One woman threw a glass bottle at a passing car as someone inside took pictures. The car took off, turning toward the Eisenhower Expressway on Pulaski, and another bottle took flight, crashing down against a police department Tahoe as half a dozen officers looked on.

A couple people yelled there was a gun in the departing car. There weren't enough officers to make an arrest, though. Police have to pick battles. There were more residents than officers and if the woman who had thrown the bottle resisted, there wouldn't have been enough officers to subdue her, guard the scene and keep a small crowd back. Another woman made fun of the fact that the woman's poor aim had sent an empty liquor bottle into a squad car. The woman who chucked the bottle tried to fade back into the small crowd.

Odds are the shooter turns up shot himself in short order. Exceptionally Cleared/Closed and the beat goes on. This story repeats itself nearly daily and is one of the reasons coppers burn out and bid for more peaceable districts when they can. It something that the so-called "normal" people will never see...or will never believe.

Here is an excerpt to show an example of what I mean.

http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

I highly recommend everybody visit that blog for a look at what street cops actually think about what goes on versus what gets reported. It is closer to reality than what the news will ever tell you.

[DevilDawgJJ]

Not all LEO's are familiar with weapons laws and firearms. When the "assault weapon law" was first initiated in early 90's, I had to try very hard to convince my fellow LEO's that Ruger Mini-14 was not an assault weapon.

As a matter of fact, as a firearms expert, I constantly educate my fellow LEO's on firearms and laws.

I can attest to that! My next door neighbor thinks that my AK is fully automatic, and he won't even hold it. But he goo-goos all my AR's...

I gave him a flow chart and said make copies and leave them around the dept., you know, for the children

[micro911]

What I can say from my own experience, my agency is much into public relations, and community oriented policing concept. Is it working? I don't know. I haven't been working the streets since 1994.

Hope it works and people can trust law enforcement a little better.

[micro911]

I can attest to that! My next door neighbor thinks that my AK is fully automatic, and he won't even hold it. But he goo-goos all my AR's...

I gave him a flow chart and said make copies and leave them around the dept., you know, for the children

One of my job duties is to determine if the firearm is an assault weapon, an automatic, or the device attached is a silencer. There are many yes' and no's. I tell LEO's to send the firearm to me if there is any doubt.

[epilepticninja]

It has been close to 17 years since I worked in law enforcement, and I can see a big change in the way LEO interacts with the public and visa versa. Society has changed, and LE has adapted to that change, mostly to the chagrin of the public.

Most, if not all of my negative contact with LE happened while i was an LEO. Out of all of my IA's, only one was from a citizen. The rest were from my coworkers. Most were jealous, some were on a power trip, some didn't like that I supported the Sheriff or that I was extremely pro-active.. I left that agency and went to another agency and it was the same b.s., so I bounced and went into what I do now.

I have had one contact since I left LE that involved some shady "under the color of authority" b.s. for loud music when I was rocking out in my garage. I did bring it to the attention of the FTO that she was setting a bad example for her trainee (there was no RP, they heard the music when they were serving papers to my neighbor.) I even stated to them that a peace officer's peace could not be disturbed and they acknowledged that to be true, then requested that I turn the music down. Rather than win the battle to lose the war, I complied. Pissed me off though because when I was on the job, I did my best to play it fair, and do it with integrity.

The people in OT (and people in general) get on my last nerve with all their cop hate, but I know that most if not all of them have never been on the other side of the badge and had to deal with all the bullsh*t that goes along with the job. Some of the best people I have ever met or worked with (including my best friend who is still an LEO) are or were cops. Unfortunately, the public usually doesn't get to see that side of them. They just see the red and blues.

[micro911]

I just wanted to see the hate becomes dislike, and it becomes maybe friendliness, then trust.. It may take time, but I think it is possible.

But, this day and age, it will take a heck of a lot of effort on both sides.

[kermit315]

A couple of things:

1) If you are using this website, and OT in particular as your gauge of society in general, don't. There are so many hypocrites in OT it's not funny. They ***** and whine with only a partial understanding of what is going on and when you try to explain things to them you get ignored and they fill in the blanks with whatever copblock crap they care to make up or get spoonfed to them. Case in point, in the thread where people were bemoaning calling the police for anything, SVT said (paraphrased) 'fine, dont call, dont call ever, and deal with everything yourself', to which he was then *****ed at because now he wasn't doing his job. I pointed out hypocrisy where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't in another thread and said that we can't win, and was told 'our job isn't to win, its to serve'. Really.....That is the mindset here.

2) I am almost to the point of giving them a taste of their own medicine and starting threads and polls in the same vein as them, then watching the reactions. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. My only reservation is that I am generally above that. I am simply tired of the one sided moderation of any LE topics on this site lately. Bashers and liars get a pass, all others get moderated. I have been personally attacked in threads recently and it was given a pass, yet I called out a person for being a liar and had my sig edited.

[WyattandDoc]

A couple of things:

1) If you are using this website, and OT in particular as your gauge of society in general, don't. There are so many hypocrites in OT it's not funny. They ***** and whine with only a partial understanding of what is going on and when you try to explain things to them you get ignored and they fill in the blanks with whatever copblock crap they care to make up or get spoonfed to them. Case in point, in the thread where people were bemoaning calling the police for anything, SVT said (paraphrased) 'fine, dont call, dont call ever, and deal with everything yourself', to which he was then *****ed at because now he wasn't doing his job. I pointed out hypocrisy where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't in another thread and said that we can't win, and was told 'our job isn't to win, its to serve'. Really.....That is the mindset here.

2) I am almost to the point of giving them a taste of their own medicine and starting threads and polls in the same vein as them, then watching the reactions. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. My only reservation is that I am generally above that. I am simply tired of the one sided moderation of any LE topics on this site lately. Bashers and liars get a pass, all others get moderated. I have been personally attacked in threads recently and it was given a pass, yet I called out a person for being a liar and had my sig edited.

I hear ya Brother. I got fed up with the OT crap and said some things I shouldn't have. I lowered myself to the depths of OT and not only got banned, but did the profession a disservice.

We need to rise above that stuff and realize the vast majority of the public appreciates us just as we appreciate the vast majority of the public. We are citizens that wear a uniform and we need to remember that.

You hit the nail on the head that the people on CalGuns (The haters I mean) are not a true reflection of the public.

Stay Safe.

[kermit315]

I hear ya Brother. I got fed up with the OT crap and said some things I shouldn't have. I lowered myself to the depths of OT and not only got banned, but did the profession a disservice.

We need to rise above that stuff and realize the vast majority of the public appreciates us just as we appreciate the vast majority of the public. We are citizens that wear a uniform and we need to remember that.

You hit the nail on the head that the people on CalGuns (The haters I mean) are not a true reflection of the public.

Stay Safe.

The bad part isn't even that it happens. The bad part is the double standard when it happens. That is what I am fed up with. If you are going to have a standard, why not apply it evenly across the board. That used to be the rule on this site.

[IrishJoe3]

Kermit, I totally agree with you and applaud most of your posts. I dont post much though because it's a complete waste of time. There is a radical corp of rabid individuals who are devoid of any logic, reasoning, common sense and, worst of all, an open mind.

I'm concerned for the day this website becomes inconsistent and incompatible with my role due to the rabid and violent extremists here who have the tacit approval (apparantly) of the MODS

[kermit315]

Kermit, I totally agree with you and applaud most of your posts. I dont post much though because it's a complete waste of time. There is a radical corp of rabid individuals who are devoid of any logic, reasoning, common sense and, worst of all, an open mind.

I'm concerned for the day this website becomes inconsistent and incompatible with my role due to the rabid and violent extremists here who have the tacit approval (apparantly) of the MODS

That's what I don't get. It used to be the standard that if it couldn't be posted with your 10 year old looking over your shoulder, it couldn't be posted. That no longer seems to be the standard. There is a rule that you cannot post about committing crimes, gun or otherwise, but that happens consistently. The 3ft law thread has a person that has talked about running cyclists off the road, people talking about running cyclists over. There are plenty of people on here who straight up talk about ignoring laws that they don't agree with. All against the rules, but accepted. The ramblings of some in OT sound straight up like sovereign citizens now. I really mean it, one of these days one of them is going to flip, and when they are going through his computer they are going to figure out he has an account here and they are going to start peeling back onion layers.

What is doubly funny is that in the OT LE threads you get certain people that talk about the LE PR problem (they need to be more transparent, need to get in front of the PR game, etc), but nobody seems to look at this site and its PR issues. An outsider coming in, what are they going to see? OT is shielded from google bots and from those not logged in. How hard is it to make an account, really?

[IrishJoe3]

Indeed. In a recent thread where a LEO was murdered in the line of duty, a member made the comment" he should have killed a few more" referring to the shooter killing more LEOs. I was shocked, not so much for the comment (which sadly standard fare here), but that the comment was unchallenged and accepted as an acceptable response.

As a LEO I will not associate with violent extremists or hate groups. This site is going that way.

[IrishJoe3]

He'll, the head of CGF proudly stated he would love to see narcotic cops shot in the face, and if they were strung up on light poles he'd smile and drink his coffee. Guess who A) is a public figure and represents this website AND gun owners and B) did not even get a temp ban.

[SloChicken]

He'll, the head of CGF proudly stated he would love to see narcotic cops shot in the face, and if they were strung up on light poles he'd smile and drink his coffee. Guess who A) is a public figure and represents this website AND gun owners and B) did not even get a temp ban.

Wow, what ???
Something is really wrong with people like that.
I have posted in this thread, and wasn't exactly patting LEOs on the back with my comments either. But my comments are in line with he topic, and experiences I have had.
Good or bad, these guys (LEOs) are just trying to do a difficult job. Some are jaded by the seemingly unwinnable/unending task, others have egos that get inflated by their role.
But many officers do a very hard job very well.
A few not so much - and that kills public perception, which in turn makes the job even more difficult.