Sad Situation

[Citizen_B]

It is not the function of police associations to assist in changing gun laws, their function is to represent their members in negotiating work related benefits and rights.
As far as police chiefs, they are not elected by the police associations, in fact, in most cases the associations have zero input on the matter. Police Chiefs are selected by mayors and city councils and are often brought in from somewhere else, not promoted from within the department. Who elected those mayors and city council members? It certainly wasn't the police associations. The Sheriffs are also elected positions, once again voted in by the voters, not the deputy sheriffs associations.
It is not that you have entered the lions den, it's that you are showing that you really have no idea as to the function of police associations or their actual political influence. Because of this lack of knowledge you appear to be trying to make this a us against them situation and place the blame on a small group of people (LE) instead of the inaction of the average gun owner.

You've again made an assumption I'm saying you have to be a Chief or Sheriff to influence change, which I am not. You seem to keep thinking I'm blaming the LEO rank and file for inaction and as a consequence, the current laws in place. I am not. Please quote me where I state otherwise.

I entered this thread because a LEO expressed concern on what he observed as a trend (or growing minority) of negative public perception of LE. I don't know if this is true or just a niche issue. I don't hold a negative view of LE. Reread my original posts for evidence. What we're talking about now is a side issue.

Here's the bottom line hopefully we can agree on and part ways. The political powers at be in this state have created a largely illogical system of laws regarding gun control. They're illogical because regardless of someone's position on gun control, the end result is just a convoluted mess. As citizens, we all have the responsibility to take action when we see things that are wrong and to speak up when we disagree. If one stands by, they lose the right to disagree with the establishment. I agree with you, the general population has elected these politicians and it's been a constant uphill battle to try and induce change. We all need to do what we can. That's all. There's no need for blame.

[IrishJoe3]

Here's the bottom line hopefully we can agree on and part ways. The political powers at be in this state have created a largely illogical system of laws regarding gun control. They're illogical because regardless of someone's position on gun control, the end result is just a convoluted mess. As citizens, we all have the responsibility to take action when we see things that are wrong and to speak up when we disagree. If one stands by, they lose the right to disagree with the establishment. I agree with you, the general population has elected these politicians and it's been a constant uphill battle to try and induce change. We all need to do what we can. That's all. There's no need for blame.

Good! Spot on, I agree completely!

As a concerned citizen, I have written letters, I have been to 2A rallies, I have spoken out about my concern and displeasure regarding the existing firearm laws. I do this as a citizen NOT a LEO.

As a LEO, I have no opinion nor will I. As a LEO, I work for everyone, from the flaming liberal to the ultra conservative. I enforce the specific laws enacted by those elected by We the People.

So don't you dare tell me (you didn't, I'm making a point) that I am against the People and am anti 2A because I refuse to stand up in my uniform and take a political stand. I don't do that precisely because I have integrity and respect for our community and country and the job that I do and those I serve.

The irony is that I have probably stood next to the very same calgunners who vent online about anti 2A police.

[WyattandDoc]

I recall reading an article where LE members were upset when they were used as props during Obama's visit to CO (last month, I think). It just generalized LE to appear like they're all on the same page with the government on this specific agenda. When that's not the case. I believe some even chose not to show up and called in sick, or something.

With that said, just because the law doesn't make sense, doesn't mean the LEO agrees with it. However, it's their job to enforce the laws passed.

This is why as a citizen, I've become more politically involved within my community. Complaining online will not change the status quo.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Where the hell have you been hiding?...LOL

Well said

[IrishJoe3]

I've never blamed the average LEO for the laws in place - you've assumed that.

Let's stay on point. You are a member of an organization. As a member, you move up in rank. You interact with your leadership as well as your peers. Perhaps you are even part of the leadership in some way. You influence culture whether you believe it or not. You are a member of a union. As a member you have voting privileges. You elect your union leader. Are you seriously saying you have NO power to change anything? PD Chiefs and Sheriffs around this state have supported gun control legislation both publicly and in practice. Shall I provide a long list of evidence? There are Sheriffs right now that will not honor the Peruta decision. The public has failed to vote some of these out, but how exactly did they become leaders? To say you have no ability to influence change from within an organization is like saying average Joe is helpless to change laws and shouldn't even vote. The grassroot efforts of Calguns, 2A, etc. is proof change is possible.

Thats not what police unions are for. I can't speak for every single one, of course, but mine is VERY careful to not get involved in political issues or make any statement to the same. They only endorse a candidate based on their labor stance and that alone. That individual's standing on any other issue is completely irrelevant to the endorsement as a police unions are there for working conditions, pay and other labor issues.

If an ultra conservative pro gun NRA member supported the labor issues my union was concerned about, they would get my union's endorsement.

[TRICKSTER]

You've again made an assumption I'm saying you have to be a Chief or Sheriff to influence change, which I am not. You seem to keep thinking I'm blaming the LEO rank and file for inaction and as a consequence, the current laws in place. I am not. Please quote me where I state otherwise.

I entered this thread because a LEO expressed concern on what he observed as a trend (or growing minority) of negative public perception of LE. I don't know if this is true or just a niche issue. I don't hold a negative view of LE. Reread my original posts for evidence. What we're talking about now is a side issue.

Here's the bottom line hopefully we can agree on and part ways. The political powers at be in this state have created a largely illogical system of laws regarding gun control. They're illogical because regardless of someone's position on gun control, the end result is just a convoluted mess. As citizens, we all have the responsibility to take action when we see things that are wrong and to speak up when we disagree. If one stands by, they lose the right to disagree with the establishment. I agree with you, the general population has elected these politicians and it's been a constant uphill battle to try and induce change. We all need to do what we can. That's all. There's no need for blame.

I did not say that you claimed that one must be a Chief or Sheriff to influence change. I said that you don't understand the function and abilities of police associations.

You claim that "There's no need for blame" and yet you attempted to place it. Seriously, what is your actual point because it seems to change with every post?

[IrishJoe3]

I recall reading an article where LE members were upset when they were used as props during Obama's visit to CO (last month, I think). It just generalized LE to appear like they're all on the same page with the government on this specific agenda. When that's not the case. I believe some even chose not to show up and called in sick, or something.

Absolutly, I'd be irate if I was used like that. Its called propaganda, and done to give the appearance of LEO backing.

With that said, just because the law doesn't make sense, doesn't mean the LEO agrees with it. However, it's their job to enforce the laws passed.

Bingo, Right there.

This is why as a citizen, I've become more politically involved within my community. Complaining online will not change the status quo.

Good for you! That is exactly what needs to happen. And I hope more citizens wake up and realize that, and I hope the tough talkers on this website do less talking and more action. Maybe then we'd get somewhere.

[Citizen_B]

You made this very strong claim.

Prove it. Show me how you know this to be so.

Ok, since this time you asked politely... Look up the list of largest cities in California. Start from the top and work down looking at all the public statements and legislative support the PD Chiefs of these cities have given. Here's the cities list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_California_cities_by_population

Am I grateful that a Chief out in the boonies is pro-2A? Absolutely, but his area of influence pales in comparison to LA (population 3.8 million), whose Chief has endorsed a federal ban on the sale of 'high-capacity' magazines. Or San Diego's last Chief who basically said he supports gun control laws that will eventually take guns off the street in a generation Etc...

[TRICKSTER]

Absolutly, I'd be irate if I was used like that. Its called propaganda, and done to give the appearance of LEO backing.



Bingo, Right there.



Good for you! That is exactly what needs to happen. And I hope more citizens wake up and realize that, and I hope the tough talkers on this website do less talking and more action. Maybe then we'd get somewhere.

Exactly. When I was working, I did my best to treat these stupid laws with the appropriate response when I could and educate my fellow officers and the command staff. Since I retired, I have been active in supporting gun rights groups and volunteering to staff pro-gun booths and pass out information at gun shows. I wonder how many of these tough talkers are actually doing anything other than complaining on Calguns about unfair life is because someone can get something that they cant.

[IrishJoe3]

Ok, since this time you asked politely... Look up the list of largest cities in California. Start from the top and work down looking at all the public statements and legislative support the PD Chiefs of these cities have given. Here's the cities list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_California_cities_by_population

Am I grateful that a Chief out in the boonies is pro-2A? Absolutely, but his area of influence pales in comparison to LA (population 3.8 million), whose Chief has endorsed a federal ban on the sale of 'high-capacity' magazines. Or San Diego's last Chief who basically said he supports gun control laws that will eventually take guns off the street in a generation Etc...

Wait....what? Giving me a wikipedia page that lists the largest cities does nothing to prove your claim that most unions and police departments are anti 2A.

The fact is you have no evidence to back your claim. You're making wild accusations solely on your personal opinion. IE you're talking out your 5th point of contact.

You're entitled to your opinion, but its good to clarify baseless assumptions and speculation with something to the effect of "I believe" or "its my perspective that..."

Helps maintain a semblence of personal credibility with people who actually are in the know.

[TRICKSTER]

Ok, since this time you asked politely... Look up the list of largest cities in California. Start from the top and work down looking at all the public statements and legislative support the PD Chiefs of these cities have given. Here's the cities list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_California_cities_by_population

Am I grateful that a Chief out in the boonies is pro-2A? Absolutely, but his area of influence pales in comparison to LA (population 3.8 million), whose Chief has endorsed a federal ban on the sale of 'high-capacity' magazines. Or San Diego's last Chief who basically said he supports gun control laws that will eventually take guns off the street in a generation Etc...

Police Chiefs are politicians selected by mayors and city councils that were elected by the voters and don't belong to or speak for the officers associations. So where is that list officers unions that "are generally anti-gun."

[10-8Gunslinger]

I've come to the conclusion that 99% of Joe public just wants to live their lives. Sure they do stupid crap which causes an interaction with the police. Sometimes those go well, sometimes you get the attitude. It goes both way. But it doesn't kill me either way. How many times have you been to a restaurant and had bad service from a waitress? Doesn't mean every server is bad. I don't even think about it after I've left the joint. But people love to get their panties in a bunch when it comes to the cop.

Sometimes you'll meet people or even close friends who want to whine about police brutality and how bad we are. I then tell them, if you don't like the way things are done. Put an application in, go through an academy, hit the streets and help your community. A large percentage of the time I get a blank stare to that comment... go figure. Same goes to people on Calguns. Hate the way the system operates? vote for laws that you want, and step-up and put a uniform on...

And in regards to the MILITARIZATION of the police I don't see an issue with armor vehicles, AR15's, and grenade launchers. If my child/loved one was in a school(Sandyhook, Columbine, etc) or trapped in a neighborhood (North Hollywood) with a bunch of lunatics running around I would want them to have anything they needed to get my kid out. Columbine proved what happens when we don't properly equip the police. The south central riots and Ferguson proved you need a CS launcher. Calling it a grenade launcher is media hype. We don't use bombs, that's what terrorist like the boston bomber use.

And no the police aren't paid to die, we are paid to protect. You don't expect to put a chihuahua out in your yard to protect your family from a wolf now do you. You put a german shepard or rott. You use the right equipment for the job. Again, if you are anti-properly equipping your police department then I'd say your not much of a EDC'er to begin with.

And finally, as I mentioned if you are part of the public that hates the way we do our job. Feel free to step up and join us on the line. Because behind standing behind us, and chirping does no good. We want and need good people to be with us... and most of the public is.

[IrishJoe3]

Exactly. When I was working, I did my best to treat these stupid laws with the appropriate response when I could and educate my fellow officers and the command staff. Since I retired, I have been active in supporting gun rights groups and volunteering to staff pro-gun booths and pass out information at gun shows. I wonder how many of these tough talkers are actually doing anything other than complaining on Calguns about unfair life is because someone can get something that they cant.

Yup. I just passed out the flowchart to my whole office, and spent dozens of hours on my days off preparing a class to teach the patrol guys what is and is not legal precisely so they DON'T jam up a law abiding citizen. When the training was over the universal consensus from actual patrol officers was CA gun laws are stupid and pointless. I got a call from another area asking if I could give the training to them too.

So yeah. I'm doing my part. What are all you doing?

[Citizen_B]

You claim that "There's no need for blame" and yet you attempted to place it. Seriously, what is your actual point because it seems to change with every post?

Who did I blame? I don't know why you continue to think this. I did say:

As members of those organizations, I say try to influence change from within.

What's wrong with that? I served in the military. This is the quintessential example of a rigid organization. You follow orders without question and without any expressed political opinion. I didn't agree with everything we did or why, but we did it. However there is always latitude to structure or influence your area of responsibility. We talked about politics all the time, but made sure we did our job without that clouding our judgement. I'm sure LEOs do the same. Anyway that was politics. For the practical stuff we worked our concerns up the chain of command. If you keep hitting it (tactfully), eventually something sticks.

I commend all the LEOs that support 2A rights, either publicly or privately. I don't hold any animosity whatsoever to those that don't. Ironically, the majority of my LEO family/friends are anti-gun. I try to do my part to talk to them about that.

The OP stated he was bothered with his limitation of sidearm/ammo. That's something he can try to change up his chain of command. I think that's how this train started.

[spyde12]

Where the hell have you been hiding?...LOL

Well said

Thank you. The comment you underlined was something I wanted to hit home because it's a fact that cannot be overlooked.

Absolutly, I'd be irate if I was used like that. Its called propaganda, and done to give the appearance of LEO backing.



Bingo, Right there.



Good for you! That is exactly what needs to happen. And I hope more citizens wake up and realize that, and I hope the tough talkers on this website do less talking and more action. Maybe then we'd get somewhere.

Thank you. Politics is such a touchy subject (be it 2A, LE, or the propaganda de jour) and certain people are easily offended when my views don't mesh with theirs. It's especially annoying when some choose to prove their point with hyperboles and/or insults. It goes against my analytical mindset because all sense of logic and reasoning goes out the window. Whether I post something, or just read, this section of the forum is a favorite of mine because the only interaction I've ever had with LE has been through traffic violations, or being a victim of identity theft. Being able to understand the other side's point of view (right, or wrong is irrelevant) is important because it fills in the blanks that may influence my opinion. For the most part, I never go out of my way to say that I'm right (unless someone says something blantantly stupid) and I'll always reserve the right to change my mind based on new found knowledge.

Exactly. When I was working, I did my best to treat these stupid laws with the appropriate response when I could and educate my fellow officers and the command staff. Since I retired, I have been active in supporting gun rights groups and volunteering to staff pro-gun booths and pass out information at gun shows. I wonder how many of these tough talkers are actually doing anything other than complaining on Calguns about unfair life is because someone can get something that they cant.

That's awesome and that shows that you take pride in doing the right thing. If you ever need volunteers for these events, let me know.

Yup. I just passed out the flowchart to my whole office, and spent dozens of hours on my days off preparing a class to teach the patrol guys what is and is not legal precisely so they DON'T jam up a law abiding citizen. When the training was over the universal consensus from actual patrol officers was CA gun laws are stupid and pointless. I got a call from another area asking if I could give the training to them too.

So yeah. I'm doing my part. What are all you doing?

As a citizen and for someone that's new to all this, thank you for taking the time in educating your team. It's nice knowing that citizens and LE actually agree on something .

[micro911]

"Most agencies official policy and those of the unions are generally anti-gun."

"Prove it. Show me how you know this to be so."

Actually, my association generally endorses Democratic candidates.. Against my wish.