Pima Co DA clears PCSD Entry Team

[9mmepiphany]

It's presumptive to think he ever knew it was the police. Only about 32 seconds elapsed between the time they knocked/announced and shots were fired.

Further...wasn't a flashbang thrown in the door during that time? If he was flash banged how the hell could he hear or see anything? Let alone that the people busting down his door were police officers?

I could see where the shouted warnings and announcements, in both English and Spanish, could have been partially covered by the siren. And while I know of cases where home invaders have identified themselves as LEO upon entry, they don't happen in the middle of the morning and they surely don't draw attention to themselves with a siren.

I think you can clearly hear on the tape that there was no flashbang used. If you are referring to the loud bang heard upon entry, that is the door giving way

There are other reasonable scenarios that might produce such damage, especially considering the volume and wildness of fire by the officers involved.

There was only one direction that the officers could have fired at him from at the point he confronted them. If the damage to the gun was from the direction of muzzle toward the stock, the gun must have been oriented toward the shooter at the time. It is simple firearms/ammunition forensic evidence...the direction of damage is pretty clear if the surface isn't completely destroyed/consumed

[SVT-40]

I don't see a video. I guess I am missing some software to view? Arggg...

That's because it's only a audio clip......


click on the link. Below the short story is a speaker icon. Beside it is a triangle "start" icon. Click on the triangle.

[jeep7081]

That's because it's only a audio clip......


click on the link. Below the short story is a speaker icon. Beside it is a triangle "start" icon. Click on the triangle.

I just did all these updates, etc, etc. Only to just discover a few seconds ago what you posted. Still laughing...

[guns4life]

If you don't have the experience or knowledge...would you then concede that your opinion would than be based of speculation and emotion, rather than science?...or at least experience?

I'll ask you the same question...but let me stop you before you try to use the impact on the rifle as an example, it is not. What science do you have?

[jeep7081]

I think the fact that he had an AR15 in his hand, in the hall way, being an ex' Marine dealing in stolen firearms says it all. The part of science is irrelevant. Did I miss something?

[9mmepiphany]

I'll ask you the same question...but let me stop you before you try to use the impact on the rifle as an example, it is not. What science do you have?

Just basic physics classes, evidence collection classes, forensic gunshot classes and blood splatter classes. All the stuff you'll see on Bones (the television show) or in Abbie's lab in NCIS...except not as fancy and we didn't have the neat CG stuff. We used rods, string and lasers in crime scene recreation

Why would the bullet strikes on the rifle not be evidence? The obviously thing would be to correlate it to the bullet strikes on the furniture...since they would have less tendency to move under impact

[sawchain]

If he can't see or hear. How did he grab the AR15? He already had it before hand and was ready for them Follow?

I follow. Here's my understanding: Jose's in bed. His wife sees men with guns out the window. She wakes him up telling him there are men with guns outside. He tells her to grab the son and hide in the closet. He grabs his AR-15 and starts heading for the door. The flashbang goes off. Jose is now blind and stunned. The SWAT team throws the door open, sees the gun and opens fire.

This account is supported by Venessa Guerena's statements.

I wasn't trying to imply that he was flashbanged, then grabbed his gun. It's important to keep these events in order so we can figure out what truly took place. Despite what some of you may think, I'm not trying to arbitrarily pin blame on one side or the other. I want to know the truth of what happened and, if necessary, hold someone accountable.

This whole situation scares the crap out of me because I see myself doing exactly what Jose did. That is, if I hear a noise outside, I WILL grab my gun and investigate. But before I know what's happened the SWAT team will bust down my door and fill me with lead. Then, to hear folks here suggest that Jose was just a damn POS and deserved what he got scares me even more. Am I a damn POS, too? Does my wife and son (a bit younger than Jose's) deserve to see their husband/father splattered all over the living room because I chose to defend our home? Do any of you LEO's understand this point of view? What if you hear someone smashing down your door? Wouldn't you also grab a gun, only to be filled with lead when at the last moment you realize it's your fellow officers?

Sorry, not your parent our your spouse. Your going to have to do your own leg work if you want the answer.

If you make a claim, it's up to you to support it with evidence. Otherwise you have zero credibility. You have to do your own leg work if you want to be taken seriously.

[sawchain]

There was only one direction that the officers could have fired at him from at the point he confronted them. If the damage to the gun was from the direction of muzzle toward the stock, the gun must have been oriented toward the shooter at the time. It is simple firearms/ammunition forensic evidence...the direction of damage is pretty clear if the surface isn't completely destroyed/consumed

I would argue against this (i.e. maybe the muzzle was struck as Jose was knocked back or falling), but it's pointless since we'll probably never be able to inspect the gun for ourselves. So...until more data comes out, we'll not know one way or the other.

[TRICKSTER]

I follow. Here's my understanding: Jose's in bed. His wife sees men with guns out the window. She wakes him up telling him there are men with guns outside. He tells her to grab the son and hide in the closet. He grabs his AR-15 and starts heading for the door. The flashbang goes off. Jose is now blind and stunned. The SWAT team throws the door open, sees the gun and opens fire.

I don't believe that the flashbang was deployed in the house,I believe that there was one set off in the backyard as a diversion. Even if one was used in the house, it would mean that it was thrown in after the door was opened. You also keep dodging the fact that he was a "highly trained" Marine, who would know what a flashbang is and would also know not to expose himself to any intruders coming in the front door until he knew what he was facing. So either he wasn't as "highly trained" as people claim, or he intentionally confronted the officers.

[9mmepiphany]

I would argue against this (i.e. maybe the muzzle was struck as Jose was knocked back or falling), but it's pointless since we'll probably never be able to inspect the gun for ourselves. So...until more data comes out, we'll not know one way or the other.

If your statement is based on the prior post of:

"A close examination of the rifle revealed it appeared to have been damaged by being fired upon from such an angle that it must have been pointed toward officers."

You're mis-interpreting the statement

from such an angle doesn't mean it was struck on the muzzle. I could be wrong, but my training and experience would lead me to believe that they are referring to glancing/gouging marks on the body of the rifle

[9mmepiphany]

This whole situation scares the crap out of me because I see myself doing exactly what Jose did. That is, if I hear a noise outside, I WILL grab my gun and investigate. But before I know what's happened the SWAT team will bust down my door and fill me with lead. Then, to hear folks here suggest that Jose was just a damn POS and deserved what he got scares me even more. Am I a damn POS, too? Does my wife and son (a bit younger than Jose's) deserve to see their husband/father splattered all over the living room because I chose to defend our home? Do any of you LEO's understand this point of view? What if you hear someone smashing down your door? Wouldn't you also grab a gun, only to be filled with lead when at the last moment you realize it's your fellow officers?

This is one of the problems of dealing with personal fear by attacking the fear (a form of denial) rather than accepting that it exist and taking steps to minimize the possibility that it would occur. It would have been more productive if you had started with this statement rather than take a less defensible stance.

We don't have to understand this view, because we have been trained and have trained others in the correct response to avoid this chain of events.

...Even setting aside the argument of what he and his family are accussed of being involved in...

There is one major tactical error that you seem to take for granted as a normal response. Not only is it not well thought out, it goes against all training at major schools...it is the kind of thing that is done in movies and on television and is the basis of all horror movies

...if I hear a noise outside, I WILL grab my gun and investigate.
Is wrong on so many levels, it is akin to committing suicide
1. yes, secure your family
2. yes, grab your gun
3. DO NOT go and investigate
4. Get into a secure (cover) position and call 9-1-1
5. Announce your address and what is happening.
a) if it is a warrant service, they'll give you instructions of how to survive
b) if it is a home invasion, they'll send help
6. Either way, you'll know for sure if you should disarm to survive the encounter

[sawchain]

You also keep dodging the fact that he was a "highly trained" Marine, who would know what a flashbang is and would also know not to expose himself to any intruders coming in the front door until he knew what he was facing. So either he wasn't as "highly trained" as people claim, or he intentionally confronted the officers.

I don't respond to it because it's invalid. Your logic doesn't work at all. Do you think veterans walk around their homes acting like they're in a combat zone? Are Marines incapable of being surprised by a flashbang?

[sawchain]

There is one major tactical error that you seem to take for granted as a normal response. Not only is it not well thought out, it goes against all training at major schools...it is the kind of thing that is done in movies and on television and is the basis of all horror movies

...if I hear a noise outside, I WILL grab my gun and investigate.
Is wrong on so many levels, it is akin to committing suicide
1. yes, secure your family
2. yes, grab you gun
3. DO NOT go and investigate
4. Get into a secure (cover) position and call 9-1-1
5. Announce your address and what is happening.
a) if it is a warrant service, they'll give you instructions of how to survive
b) if it is a home invasion, they'll send help
6. Either way, you'll know for sure if you should disarm to survive the encounter

Your tactical assessment is sound. Thanks.

I still assert that using SWAT to deal with a non-violent crime is a misapplication of force. It only increases the risk that someone will be hurt. If a bit more tactical thinking were done PRIOR to issuing the warrant, the order of events you describe could never occur. The warrant itself described officers following and watching Jose. Why didn't they follow and watch him as he drove home from the mine that day? Why not observe the house if it was the target? If they did he would still be alive, AND if he was guilty of a crime, would rightly be sitting in jail.

[9mmepiphany]

How could following him home and observing the house have changed anything?

They would have still needed to enter the house to search it. plus the service of the warrant had to be coordinated with the other warrants to prevent warnings and escapes

Why are you calling being involved in home invasions and drug rip-offs (the crime they were investigating) a non-violent crime?

[guns4life]

This is one of the problems of dealing with personal fear by attacking the fear (a form of denial) rather than accepting that it exist and taking steps to minimize the possibility that it would occur. It would have been more productive if you had started with this statement rather than take a less defensible stance.

We don't have to understand this view, because we have been trained and have trained others in the correct response to avoid this chain of events.

...Even setting aside the argument of what he and his family are accussed of being involved in...

There is one major tactical error that you seem to take for granted as a normal response. Not only is it not well thought out, it goes against all training at major schools...it is the kind of thing that is done in movies and on television and is the basis of all horror movies

...if I hear a noise outside, I WILL grab my gun and investigate.
Is wrong on so many levels, it is akin to committing suicide
1. yes, secure your family
2. yes, grab your gun
3. DO NOT go and investigate
4. Get into a secure (cover) position and call 9-1-1
5. Announce your address and what is happening.
a) if it is a warrant service, they'll give you instructions of how to survive
b) if it is a home invasion, they'll send help
6. Either way, you'll know for sure if you should disarm to survive the encounter

Unrealistic to approach every "noise outside" in this fashion.