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Originally posted by Dirtbiker
Originally posted by Master BlasterOriginally posted by edward -
checkout 8103 W&I. the firearms restriction is only for 5 years, not forever. And if you are not committed involuntarily (as in you voluntarily go into a medical mental health facility), the firearms restriction only lasts as long as you're in the facility, not the 5 years as for someone who is involuntarily committed.
I've handled a number of these hearings and I'm usually most concerned that no one gets hurt if they get their guns back. If you need help, get it yourself. If you're involuntarily committed, then keep seeing your medical professional and make sure you apply to get your gun rights back under the hearing procedure of 8103 W&I. Tell the DA what you're doing and/or get a lawyer to help show why its not a problem for you to get your firearms returned.
If you lose the hearing, give the guns/transfer them to your wife/best friend / father / relative and you get them back when the restriction expires after 5 years.
Someone who is a paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't get their guns back. Or someone who tried to commit suicide by firearm & was committed. That's the real purpose of the law, protect people from hurting themselves and/or others.Last edited by p7m8jg; 07-03-2009, 8:09 PM.Comment
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What about Head Trauma patients that are otherwise cognitively intact? Oh, and you just described pretty much EXACTLY when EMS can take someone against their will... Yes, I am a Paramedic. I know EXACTLY when I can do something to someone against their will. My rule is simple. Behave like a decent human being, I'll treat you like one. Behave like an animal, and I'll treat you like one.Comment
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Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.
The reason is that generally speaking, security guards (private ones) have no more authority to restrain another person than any other citizen. Under certain specific circumstances, a Security Guard may be given some limited peace officer authority, and that's set in the Penal Code.
I totally agree that is a good thing... however, it doesn't prevent any abuse of the 5150 that can be done by a LEO.Comment
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Shelly,
Security that don't know about 5150s make a big deal of it.
The officers that know it's not a big deal. When you know what your doing you don't get in trouble like being sued.Comment
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No not exactly.
If the Doctor or Mental health worker says there NOT a 5150 the paper work stops.
It's not public information.
If they are a 5150 the paper trail goes to the Psych Facility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.
Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.Comment
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Don't get panties in a bunch...LOL
Thats not what I said now is it? Please try not to put words in my mouth. I never said that i think EMS should crawl unarmed....etc etc. My opinion is that instead of LEO having the cross to bear to dictate these people as 5150's, i simply think it would be better if they did everything the same up until the point of dictating whether or not to place the pt on a hold. In the counties that I work in, LEO calls us out to transport anyways, so why not call us out 15 minutes sooner, to make the decision to hold them or not?
Evaluation and transport yes. As you stated above, we are unarmed. It is LEO's job (and believe me, i am very grateful) to secure the scene/patient before we roll in.
First off, why don't YOU stop accusing me of things like cop bashing. I did no such thing and intended to do no such thing. I have VERY close people to me who are in law enforcement. Family, friends, etc. I HATE it when people cop bash. I made it very clear that it was not to be intended that way:
And of course it is my opinion. There is only one way to look at some of the situations i have seen. The example I gave was in reference to the STUPID reasons. Not the laziness. Maybe i should have worded it different. Instead of this:The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens)
I should have written it like this:The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).
Thats not what I am saying. See above as well as below.The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid reasons. Or non-legit reasons which seem to be based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).
Thank you for seeing my point and not accusing me of cop bashing.
On a side note: Counties have different procedures for this. In the counties that I work in, LEO responds to a call and finds someone who is a possible 5150. They control the scene and then call us in to transport to the BCU/BHU/Hospital. I was saying that i FEEL, in MY OPINION, that they should simply call EMS, or an on duty EMS director/County health, or Supervisor, etc. to evaluate whether or not the person should be held. I realize that different counties dont have the recources that mine do, so i understand that this is not possible. I am speaking for the counties I work in specifically.Last edited by AirflowPimp; 07-03-2009, 11:56 PM.WE MUST ALL FEAR EVIL MEN, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER KIND OF EVIL WHICH WE MUST FEAR MOST, AND THAT IS THE INDIFFERENCE OF GOOD MEN
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Im saying the paper work comes to the Hospital with the patient.
If there NOT 5150 the paper work get sealed there in a folder.
What is LCSW?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
No not exactly.
If the Doctor or Mental health worker says there NOT a 5150 the paper work stops.
It's not public information.
If they are a 5150 the paper trail goes to the Psych Facility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com
CSDGuy,
The Doctors and Mental Health workers can over ride the LEOs 5150.
The Doctor or mental health worker decide if the person is a 5150.
Actually, the 5150 is for the evaluation. You're right. They can override the 5150, but not until they see the patient first. The "damage" has been done already because the paperwork has been completed that sends the patient to an Emergency Psych Facility.
So what you're saying is that the paperwork never arrives at the facility if the Psych Doc or LCSW at the facility reviews the paperwork brought to the facility evaluates the patient and decides that they don't need to be committed...
07-04-2009 04:01 AMComment
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It isn't a huge deal at all, for some reason you are reading way more into my post than was there. I mentioned it to illustrate that it was a relatively rare occurrence, and that having to do two in one day at the BHU was somewhat novel. Depending on the location, yes it does involve paperwork. Where I work "laying hands on people" (this is my preferred term, others may say something different) does not require a report unless you end up putting the person in restraints which very rarely is necessary in the BHU because we have isolation rooms and only use restraints if the person in there is banging their head on the wall or otherwise trying to harm themselves. The mental health staff might have to do somepaperwork but I don't know.
In the ER on the other hand their are no isolation rooms and having to restrain people is more common (about 1 night, more on weekends, usually drunk stinking bums).
In hospitals it is a little bit different because if a doctor tells you to restrain someone, you do it, and as long as you are acting in good faith (following what appear to be legitimate directions from the doctor) you are not committing a crime.
Yeah, unless it is a pressing issue (about to be a fight) I will wait until staff directs me to grab somebody. I have had a guy swing on me which obviously I did not wait for staff directions, I just dragged him to isolation. Also with 5150's vs. drunks in the ER, the 5150 usually doesn't really no what they are doing as much so there is a higher level of pity, and you don't want to have to lay hands on them. There really isn't too much danger of being sued from someone in the BHU, which is kind of nice. If someone tried to sue me, it would boil down to some nutcase trying to sue a trained guy doing his job, with full support from staff and a letter from the judge who oversees the mental health hearings saying what a great guy I am. I have been threatened with lawsuits a bunch (anyone who works in BHU has) and nothing has ever come of it.
JUST WANT TO CLARIFY, when I complained about "goddam cops" bringing a bunch of 5150's in, I was speaking jokingly and no offense was intended I hope none of you guys took offense, although I did get a questioning (although very civil) pm about it so I thought I'd make sure folks knew I didn't mean any offense.Last edited by B.D.Dubloon; 07-03-2009, 11:38 PM.Comment
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I've been doing 5150's for 30 years all over and up and down CA. I've never had the luxury of a medic unit taking the patient in for me. Unless they display injuries that require first-aid. It's a you catch 'em, you clean 'em situation. I'm the one that takes them into custody. I transport. I have to sit in the lobby and complete the paperwork with the patient, before I'm even allowed to get them looked at. My "paperwork" on 5150's is very simple. One page. I outline my PC for believing the person is a 5150. I take them in and leave. The Dr. does not over-ride my case. He agrees or not. When a cop arrests for 5150, he is not making a final judgement. he's just saying basically, "I think this guy is a nut job. What do you think Doc?" Although I've never had one disagree with my assessment, nor for that matter any other Peace Officer's that I've ever heard of. I don't even wait around for a Psych Dr. to see the patient. After hours or on weekends it takes a couple of hours for them to get there anyway. I usually just hand them off, give the nurse my report, and say, "See ya on the flip flop." After a Dr. eventually looks at them, if he agrees, then they get sent off to a true psyche ward. Or if he were to disagree they get sent out the back door with a pat on the fanny if no other crime was comitted. Officially I don't even get notified of the result with the new HIPPA laws.Comment
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Well, you must haven never worked in Fresno County in the recent years, because we are called to transport all 5150's to the proper location, medical complaint or not.
BTW...My interpretation of "Cop Bashing" is bashing ALL law enforcement officers...or in other words grouping all of one type of person, be it profession, race, etc., into one group. Also can be known as profiling, stereotyping, etc. I CLEARLY stated that there were SOME officers...blah blah blah. So what I was doing was bashing the SPECIFIC TYPES of officers who do these things.
So Fireinthehole and Retired, let me put it to you this way: There are some medics/EMTs who do stupid and/or lazy things as well. Now if you will look at that line, can you honestly say (being that I am one myself) that I am Medic/EMT bashing? No! I am bashing the specific medics/EMT's who do those things. You see where I'm going with this?WE MUST ALL FEAR EVIL MEN, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER KIND OF EVIL WHICH WE MUST FEAR MOST, AND THAT IS THE INDIFFERENCE OF GOOD MEN
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"The pace at which our Liberties are being thwarted from our hands will soon prove either the result of a fallen society, or a revolution like one not seen by our generation; quite possibly a combination of both."Comment
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I don't think I've ever seen a 5150 not accepted as a BHU patient, granted my experience is a small fraction of yours. Cops where I work usually bring them to the back hallway of our BHU (at this point they are locked in and not getting out until a doctor clears them), frisk them and we take over. One of the mental health workers frisk them again and they are invited to walk onto the unit or we drag them to isolation (relatively rare).
There was one time where (I am not sure the details, this is just what the EMTs who brought him in told me) someone called an ambulance for a drunk hobo near a very popular tourist area and also the cops. The ambulance folks checked him out and he was fine, but the cops made them (not sure how they would do this, but this is what I was told) take him to us anyway. After he stunk up the ER for a couple hours and talked a whole bunch of **** (while totally restrained) we wheeled him outside (doctor's orders) to the ambulance dock until the PD came to pick him up an hour or so later.Comment
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AirflowPimp, it really does not matter whether you said all, some or even one when you made the remark about laziness. You are bashing a leo plain and simple. Your opinion that you are not is not the measure of whether it is or not. What Kestryll wrote in his sticky is and that is what is being enforced.
Do not do it anymore. Reread Kestryll's sticky about the rules for this particular forum; especially #3 and #6
Feel free to present your opinion on whom you believe should handle 5150s and why, then let the debate flow from that. Thanks for your cooperation.Comment
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